* This transcript was created by voice-to-text technology. The transcript has not been edited for errors or omissions, it is for reference only and is not the official minutes of the meeting. [1. Convening of Meeting] [00:00:03] GOOD EVENING EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO THE, UH, NOVEMBER 12TH, 2025 MEDFORD TOWNSHIP ZONING BOARD OF ADJUSTMENT MEETING. UH, CAN I PLEASE HAVE THE OPEN PUBLIC MEETING STATEMENT READ? CERTAINLY MADAM CHAIR AT THIS MEETING IS HELD IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE OPEN PUBLIC'S MEETINGS ACT. ADEQUATE NOTICE OF THIS MEETING WAS PUBLISHED IN THE OFFICIAL NEWSPAPER OF THE TOWNSHIP OF, OF MEDFORD SETTING FORTH THE TIME PLACE AND MATTERS TO BE ADDRESSED. BACK TO YOU, MADAM CHAIR. THANK YOU. UM, CAN EVERYONE PLEASE STAND FOR THE FLAG? SALUTE. I PLEDGE ALLEGIANCE TO THE FLAG OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, THE REPUBLIC NATION. INVIS. OKAY. UH, ROLL CALL PLEASE. MR. HAMILTON. MR. MORRISON? HERE. MS. BORHES. MR. GENTILLY? HERE. MR. ? HERE. MR. HACKETT. MR. PENAL VICE CHAIRMAN RICKER. MADAM CHAIR HUM. HERE. THANK YOU. WE ARE WAITING FOR A FEW OTHER BOARD MEMBERS TO, UH, ARRIVE. WE EXPECT TWO MORE. UM, BUT WE DIDN'T HAVE OUR MEETING LAST MONTH. OCTOBER'S MEETING WAS CANCELED. UM, SO I JUST WANTED TO MAKE A COUPLE COMMENTS BEFORE WE GET STARTED. UM, I'D LIKE TO TAKE A MOMENT TO ACKNOWLEDGE THE PASSING OF OUR SOLICITOR, JERRY DITY, WHO SERVED THE BOARD WITH DEDICATION AND INTEGRITY SINCE HIS APPOINTMENT IN 2020. JERRY WAS NOT ONLY A TRUSTED LEGAL ADVISOR, BUT A STEADY AND THOUGHTFUL PRESENCE WHOSE PROFESSIONALISM AND COMMITMENT TO OUR TOWN GUIDED THIS BOARD THROUGH MANY IMPORTANT DECISIONS. HIS PASSING IN SEPTEMBER WAS A PROFOUND LOSS AND ON BEHALF OF THE ENTIRE ZONING BOARD, I'D LIKE TO EXTEND OUR SINCERE CONDOLENCES TO HIS FAMILY AND COLLEAGUES AND ANYONE WHO HAD THE PRIVILEGE OF WORKING WITH HIM. WE ARE GRATEFUL TO HAVE MR. VARGA WITH US THIS EVENING AND WE APPRECIATE HIS CONTINUED SUPPORT. UH, MR. TY'S CONTRIBUTIONS AND PRESENCE WILL BE REMEMBERED AND WE MOVE FORWARD TONIGHT WITH DEEP RESPECT FOR HIS LEGACY. SO WITH THAT, I'LL GET, UM, STARTED ON TONIGHT'S AGENDA. [5. Communications] MS. BELL, DO WE HAVE ANY COMMUNICATIONS? UM, WE DID GET A, UM, CORRESPONDENCE THIS AFTERNOON FROM ER AND REGARDING THE APPLICANT IN 4 1 0 9, ROUTE 70. THEY HAVE ASKED FOR THE APPLICATION TO BE ADJOURNED. OKAY. UM, SO DO WE NEED TO YES, MADAM CHAIR. SO IT'S, UM, THEY'RE REQUESTING AN ADJOURNMENT WITHOUT A DATE. UM, SO THEY DID INDICATE THAT THEY WILL NOTICE FOR WHATEVER THE NEW DATE IS AND THEY HAVE AGREED TO WAIVE TIME FOR THE BOARD TO ACT. UM, AND JUST FOR THE RECORD, MR. RICKERS HAS JOINED US. UM, BUT, SO WE DO JUST NEED A MOTION AND A SECOND AND THEN ALL IN FAVOR TO GRANT THE ADJOURNMENT REQUEST. OKAY. CAN I HAVE A MOTION? UH, GRANTING THE ADJOURNMENT REQUEST. MOTION GRANTING THE ADJOURNMENT REQUEST. SECOND. SECOND. OKAY. ALL IN FAVOR? AYE. AYE. PERFECT. THANK YOU. SO, MADAM CHAIR, JUST IF I MAY, JUST FOR AN ANNOUNCEMENT FOR THE PUBLIC, IF ANYBODY'S PRESENT FOR A 1 0 9, ROUTE 70, UM, 1 0 9, UH, ADDRESS, ALSO 1 0 9 ROUTE 70, THAT APPLICATION IS GONNA BE CARRIED. THERE IS NO DATE SET SO EVERYBODY WILL RECEIVE NEW NOTICE. UM, BUT THAT APPLICATION WILL BE, NOT BE, WILL NOT BE BEING HEARD TONIGHT. THANK YOU. OKAY. NEXT UP, [6. Minutes] UH, IS THE MINUTES, DID EVERYONE ON THE BOARD HAVE A CHANCE TO REVIEW THE SEPTEMBER 17TH, 2025 REGULAR AND EXECUTIVE MEETING MINUTES? AND, UM, DOES ANYONE HAVE ANY COMMENTS, QUESTIONS? OKAY, SEEING NONE, UM, I HAVE A MOTION TO APPROVE. CAN WE DO THEM? WE CAN DO THEM BOTH. OKAY. I HAVE A MOTION, UM, TO APPROVE THE SEPTEMBER 17TH, 2025 REGULAR MEETING MINUTES AND EXECUTIVE MEETING MINUTES FOR THE SAME DATE. MOTION TO APPROVE BOTH. SECOND ROLL CALL. MR. MARSON. AYE. MR. GENTILLY? AYE. MRS. OG LOPEZ? AYE. VICE-CHAIRMAN RICKS AYE. AND MADAM CHAIR AYE. THANK YOU. UM, NEXT ON THE AGENDA IS OUR ANNUAL ZONING REPORT, BUT SEEING THAT WE HAVE A LARGE CROWD HERE TONIGHT, I THINK I'M, WE'RE GONNA MOVE THAT TO THE END OF THE, UH, END OF THE NIGHT AND, AND GET STARTED, UM, ON THE APPLICATIONS SOONER. UM, SO NEXT WE'LL GO INTO THE MEMO [8. Memorialization of Resolutions] MEMORIALIZATION OF RESOLUTIONS RESOLUTION 2025 DASH 40 REGINA GIULIANO 500 TABERNACLE ROAD BLOCK 47 0 4 LOT 1 0 1 APPROVAL FOR BULK VARIANCE FOR A SIX FOOT FENCE IN THE FRONT YARD. WE A MOTION TO APPROVE THAT? SECOND. [00:05:01] OKAY, ROLL CALL MR. MORRISON. AYE. MR. GENTIL? AYE. MR. ZS AYE VICE CHAIRMAN RICKERS AYE AND MADAM CHAIR BOL AYE. THANK YOU. RESOLUTION 2025 DASH 41 DAVID ER 1 74 COW PATH ROAD BLOCK 64 0 8. LOT FIVE APPROVAL FOR BULK VARIANCES FOR THE FRONT YARD SETBACK THE SIDE YARD SETBACK, EXCEEDING THE MAXIMUM HEIGHT, EXCEEDING THE CAPACITY AND BUILDING DEATH TO CONSTRUCT A 25 FOOT BY 36 FOOT THREE BAY TWO STORY GARAGE MOTION. MOTION TO APPROVE SECOND ROLL CALL MR. MARSON. AYE. MR. GENTILLY? AYE. MR. KUS AYE. VICE AND RICKER? AYE AND MADAM CHAIR ON BOTH AYE. RESOLUTION 2025 DASH 42 JAMES BOER TO BRADDOCKS MILL ROAD BLOCK 64 0 3 LOT ONE 15 APPROVAL FOR A BULK VARIANCE FOR A SIX FOOT WOODEN PRIVACY FENCE IN THE FRONT YARD. MAKE A MOTION TO APPROVE SECOND ROLL CALL PLEASE MR. MORRISON. AYE. MR. GENTILLY? AYE. MRS. AYE. VICE CHAIRMAN RICKS AYE AND MADAM CHAIRMAN BOL AYE. RESOLUTION 2025 DASH 43 ALFRED AND VICTORIA HUMMEL FOR PIN OAK TRAIL BLOCK 30 0 7 LOT THREE APPROVAL FOR BULK VARIANCE FOR THE SIDE YARD SETBACK IN BUILDING COVERAGE FOR THE CONSTRUCTION OF AN ADDITION. MAKE A MOTION TO APPROVE SECOND ROLL CALL MR. MORRISON. AYE. MR. GENTIL AYE. MR. ZUCK AYE. VICE CHAIR RICHARDS A MADAM CHAIR ON BOTH AYE. THANK YOU. RESOLUTION 2025 DASH 44 LORETTA MOONEY 2 72 HOPEWELL ROAD BLOCK 56 0 3. LOT ONE APPROVAL FOR BOTH VARIANCES FOR THE FRONT YARD SETBACK AND BUILDING COVERAGE FOR THE CONSTRUCTION OF A DECK. MAKE A MOTION TO APPROVE SECOND ROLL CALL PLEASE MR. MARSON. AYE. MR. AYE, MR. ZOGA AYE VICE CHAIRMAN RICK AYE. MADAM CHAIR HUM. AYE. RESOLUTION 2025 DASH 45 PETER MOODY, 22 MILL STREET BLOCK 2 0 1 LOT EIGHT APPROVAL FOR A BULK VARIANCE FOR A SIDE YARD SETBACK AND A CERTIFICATE OF APPROPRIATENESS FOR THE CONSTRUCTION OF A SINGLE FAMILY DWELLING IN THE HISTORIC DISTRICT. MOTION TO APPROVE. SECOND ROLL CALL MR. MARON. AYE. MR. GEN AYE. MR. AYE. VICE CHAIRMAN RICKERS AYE. AND MADAM CHAIR, UM, AYE. RESOLUTION 2025 DASH 46 KEVIN AND DEBORAH FANNING 2 0 1 TAUNTON BOULEVARD BLOCK 37 10 LOT FIVE APPROVAL FOR BULK VARIANCES FOR THE SIDE AND REAR YARD, REAR YARD SETBACKS AND THE BUILDING AND LOCK COVERAGE FOR THE CONSTRUCTION OF AN ENCLOSED SECOND STORY DECK AND THE SIDE YARD SETBACK FOR THE EXISTING SHED. MOTION TO APPROVE SECOND ROLL CALL PLEASE. MR. MARON? AYE. MR. AYE, MR. ZOGA AYE. VICE CHAIRMAN RICKERS AYE. MADAM CHAIR OBO AYE. THANK YOU. RESOLUTION 2025 DASH 47 CHRISTOPHER ACTON 2 0 2 TAUNTON BOULEVARD BLOCK 37 0 6 LOT FIVE APPROVAL FOR BULK VARIANCES FOR THE FRONT YARD SETBACK AND EXCEEDING THE BUILDING COVERAGE FOR THE CONSTRUCTION OF A DECK AND PORCH. MOTION TO APPROVE SECOND ROLL CALL MR. MARSON? AYE. MR. GENIO? AYE. MR. AYE. VICE CHAIRMAN RICK AYE. MADAM CHAIR? AYE. OKAY. UM, DO YOU WANNA SPEAK ON THE ORDER OF THE APPLICATIONS BEFORE WE GET STARTED? YES. THANK YOU MADAM CHAIR. SO AS THE BOARD IS AWARE, APPLICANT C JOSEPH WHITAKER IS FOR USE VARIANCE BECAUSE THERE'S ONLY FIVE BOARD MEMBERS HERE AND A SIX IS ON THE WAY. UM, THE BOARD, I BELIEVE WOULD BE APPROPRIATE TO REORDER THE ORDER OF APPLICANTS TO START FIRST WITH ROBERT MASUCCI, SECOND BY AMANDA CAPONE, THIRD BY RAQUEL, UM, RELA FIFTH MICHAEL LEVITON FIFTH WILL BE JOSEPH WHITAKER. UM, IN ORDER TO ENSURE THAT AT LEAST SIX MEMBERS ARE PRESENT, BEING THAT A SUPER MAJORITY IS REQUIRED, SO IF THAT IS ACCEPTABLE, I WOULD JUST ASK THAT THE CHAIR, MADAM CHAIR, YOU CALL ROBERT MASCHI AND WE CAN BEGIN THE APPLICATIONS. THANK YOU. OKAY. FIRST APPLICATION [9. Applications] OF THE NIGHT, ROBERT MASUCCI. 11 SAWMILL ROAD BLOCK 66 0 1, LOT 22 SEEKING A BULK VARIANCE TO EXCEED THE LOT COVERAGE FOR THE CONSTRUCTION OF AN INGROUND SWIMMING POOL, MR. MASUCCI. OKAY. OKAY. IS, IS MS. MASUCCI MR. MASUCCI PRESENT? ANYBODY REPRESENTING 11 SAWMILL ROAD? ALRIGHT, MADAM CHAIR, WE HAVE ONE OF TWO OPTIONS. YOU CAN EITHER A MOVE TO DISMISS [00:10:01] THE APPLICATION FOR LACK OF PROSECUTION OR B ADJOURN THE APPLICATION TO THE NEXT MEETING DECEMBER 17TH. 17TH 2025 WITHOUT NEED FURTHER NOTICE. OKAY. DID YOU, I KNOW THAT THIS IS, YOU KNOW, THIS MONTH'S MEETING IS EARLIER THAN TIP THAN NORMAL. SO HE DID EMAIL ME, I WAS OUTTA THE OFFICE YESTERDAY AND MONDAY, SO I GOT AN EMAIL THIS MORNING AND HE ASKED WHEN THE MEETING WAS AND I TOLD HIM WHAT WAS TONIGHT, BUT I DON'T, HE NEVER RESPONDED BACK TO ME. OKAY. UM, SO THERE MIGHT HAVE BEEN SOME CONFUSION YES. ON THE DATE OF THE MEETING. UM, SO I THINK IT'S APPROPRIATE TO MAKE A MOTION, UM, ADJOURN TO TO NEXT MONTH. TO NEXT MONTH. YEAH. SO WE NEED SOMEBODY TO MAKE A MOTION FOR THAT. MAKE A MOTION TO ADJOURN FOR NEXT MONTH. YEAH. FOR NEXT MONTH WITHOUT THE NEED FOR FURTHER NOTICE. WITHOUT THE NEED FOR FURTHER NOTICE. YES. WE HAVE A MOTION AND A SECOND. YEAH. FIRST FIVE MR. ZURO. SECOND BY VICE CHAIRMAN RECORDS. THANK YOU. ROLL CALL PLEASE. OR COULD WE DO ALL IN FAVOR? YOU COULD DO ALL IN FAVOR. ALL RIGHT. ALL IN FAVOR? AYE. AYE. SO FOR THOSE MEMBERS OF THE PUBLIC THAT ARE PRESENT FOR THE RABBIT MASUCCI APPLICATION 11 SAWMILL ROAD, THAT APPLICATION IS BEING CARRIED TILL DECEMBER 17TH, 2025 WITHOUT THE NEED FOR FURTHER NOTICE. THANK YOU. OKAY. NEXT APPLICATION. AMANDA CAPA ONE TAMARACK LANE BLOCK 32 0 2 0 8 BLOCK 18 SEEKING A BULK VARIANCE FOR THE FRONT YARD SETBACK AND EXCEEDING THE BUILDING COVERAGE FOR THE CONSTRUCTION OF A FRONT PORCH. HE COME, COME OFF . YOU GOT ONE . I KNOW. GOT ONE. I THOUGHT THEY WEREN'T HERE EITHER. , GOOD MORNING OR GOOD AFTERNOON. PLEASE RAISE YOUR RIGHT HAND. DO YOU SWEAR OR AFFIRM TELL THE TRUTH, NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH, SO HELP YOU GOD? YES. AND SIR, WILL YOU BE PROVIDING ANY TESTIMONY? I'M NOT SURE. I'M WELL DO CARPENTER. SURE. WELL, DO YOU SWEAR OR AFFIRM TO TELL THE TRUTH, NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH TO HELP YOU GOD? I DO. AND MA'AM, PLEASE STATE YOUR NAME AND SPELL YOUR LAST FOR THE RECORD. MY NAME IS AMANDA CAPONI. C-A-P-I-C-C-H-I-O-M-I. AND YOU SIR? UH, BENJAMIN SMITH, S-M-I-T-H. AND MS. CAPONI, YOU'RE THE OWNER OF THE PROPERTY? I AM THE APPLICANT. MY FATHER IS THE OWNER OF THE PROPERTY AND HE'S HERE TONIGHT. WONDERFUL. MADAM CHAIR, BACK TO YOU. THANK YOU. UH, OKAY. TELL US ABOUT YOUR APPLICATION PLEASE. UM, SO WE ARE REQUESTING, UM, THE ADDITION OF A FRONT PORCH BE PUT ON OUR HOME. THE PROPERTY IS LOCATED ON THE CORNER. A LOT OF TAMARACK IN THE TAMARACK NEIGHBORHOOD BECAUSE OF THE WAY THE HOUSE WAS ORIGINALLY POSITIONED IN 1987. THE FRONT SETBACK IS NONCONFORMING. IT'S ABOUT 37.29 FEET INSTEAD OF THE REQUIRED 50 FEET. SO THE PORCH WE'RE PROPOSING WOULD BRING THAT BACK MORE TO 28.21 FEET. SO WE ARE REQUESTING RELIEF FROM THE SETBACK REQUIREMENT AS WELL AS A SMALL INCREASE IN BUILDING COVERAGE FROM 18 POINT 11% TO 20.5%. THE PORCH THAT WE'RE PROPOSING IS 11 FEET DEEP BY 34 FEET WIDE, AND IT'LL RUN ACROSS THE FRONT OF THE HOUSE. IT'LL BE AN OPEN PORCH MODELED AFTER OTHER PORCHES IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD. UM, IT WILL COMPLIMENT THE HOME'S, EXISTING STYLES AND COLORS. AND THE GOAL IS TO CREATE A WARM AND WELCOMING ENTRYWAY THAT FITS NATURALLY INTO THE HOME AND THE NEIGHBORHOOD. THE PROPOSED PORCH IS MODELED, LIKE I SAID, AFTER OTHER PARTS IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD. UM, AND WITHOUT THE VARIANCE WE WOULDN'T BE ABLE TO ADD THIS PORCH, WHICH WOULD HELP PROVIDE SAFETY AND PROTECTION FROM WEATHER, UM, FOR FAMILY AND GUESTS. AND IT'S THE DESIGN IS TO ENHANCE THE HOME'S, UM, USABILITY AND CURB APPEAL WHILE MAINTAINING THE CHARACTER OF THE NEIGHBORHOOD. UM, THE HARDSHIP STEMS FROM THE PROPERTY'S CORNER LOCATION AND EXISTING HOUSE PLACEMENT, WHICH WAS BUILT BEFORE CURRENT ZONING STANDARDS. WITHOUT RELIEF, WE WOULD BE UNABLE TO ADD A SMALL FUNCTIONAL FRONT PORCH TO ALIGN WITH OTHER HOMES IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD. DO YOU NEED ONE? . THANK YOU. OKAY, . UM, YEAH, CAN YOU JUST, UH, MAYBE SPEAK A LITTLE BIT MORE TO THE, UH, THE MATERIALS, THE FINISHES AND HOW IT'S GOING TO COMPLIMENT THE, UH, THE EXISTING STRUCTURE? SO IT, IT'S GOING TO BE KIND OF SIMILAR STYLE, UH, GOING TO HAVE, UH, JUST VINYL LIKE WHITE, UM, WHITE POSTS COMING DOWN. UH, AND IT'S GONNA BE A SHINGLE ROOF TO MATCH THE EXISTING ROOF THAT SHOULD BE BUILT SEAMLESSLY. THAT LOOKS LIKE IT'S ALWAYS THERE MATCHING SIDING ON THE SIDE AS NEEDED. UM, WHITE S SOCKET UNDERNEATH, UH, NOTHING CRAZY OUT OF PLACE. JUST EVERYTHING TO LOOK LIKE IT'S ALWAYS BEEN THERE. OKAY. AND WILL THERE BE ANY TREE REMOVAL FOR, TO CONSTRUCT? LOOKS LIKE THERE'S ONE. YEAH. ARE YOU REMOVING ANY TREES? THERE WAS ONE TREE ALREADY REMOVED. THE TREE WAS REMOVED ALREADY OVER SIX INCHES. YES. SIX. THAT WAS THE DOUBLE TRAILER IN THE FRONT? YES. ARE YOU PROPOSING ANY LIGHTING? UM, THE LIGHTING WILL BE, [00:15:01] I, I BELIEVE IT'S RECESSED INSIDE THE PORCH. NOTHING FACING OUT. EVERYTHING WILL BE DOWN OR FACING. OKAY. THE, THE EXISTING, UM, UH, FRONT PORCH LIGHTS ARE GONNA STAY MM-HMM . AND BASICALLY JUST RECESS LIGHTS ACROSS, UH, BY EVERY 10 ISH FEET SOMEWHERE THERE, SO OKAY. BE FOUR, PROBABLY LESS, LESS THAN THAT. SO FOUR, FOUR LIGHTS PROBABLY. WE HAVE THE PRELIMINARY DRAWINGS THERE FOR ZONING AND PROVIDED THINGS ARE APPROVED, WE'LL GET, YOU KNOW, OBVIOUSLY THE, UH, PERMIT DRAWINGS TOGETHER. CONSTRUCTION DRAWINGS. MM-HMM . OKAY. DOES ANYONE FROM THE BOARD HAVE ANY COMMENTS OR QUESTIONS BEFORE I GO TO MS. TAYLOR? NO. OKAY. MS. TAYLOR, ANY COMMENTS? UH, I, I MEAN I THINK THE APPLICANT PRESENTED, UM, AS REQUIRED WHY THE VARIANCES? UM, YOU HAVE THE ARCHITECTURAL PLANS, IT APPEARS TO BE A, AN ENHANCEMENT TO THE HOME AS WELL AS A HARDSHIP CASE. UM, I WARM COLOR TEMPERATURE RATHER THAN TEMPERATURE IF POSSIBLE. ARE YOU OKAY WITH THAT? THE WARM COLOR TEMPERATURE? YES. OKAY. THANK YOU. SHE NEEDS TO APPLY FOR THE PERMIT FOR THE TREE NOW BECAUSE IT'S GONE ALREADY OR NO? DOES SHE NEED TO APPLY FOR A PERMIT FOR THE TREE AT THIS POINT? BECAUSE IT'S GONE. I MEAN, IT WAS IN AN AREA OF DISTURBANCE ALREADY. SO TYPICALLY IT'S REALLY, THE TREES THAT I'M MOSTLY CONCERNED ABOUT ARE TREES THAT WOULD BE IMPACTED THAT ARE OUTSIDE OF THE AREA WHERE THE CONSTRUCTION WILL BE. UM, TREES THAT, UM, WILL HAVE LIKE MATERIAL STORAGE, JUST IF YOU START TO COMPACT ROOTS. THAT'S WHY WE TALK ABOUT ALL THAT SORT OF THING. LIKE DON'T WARDS DON'T PLACE MATERIAL, DON'T DRIVE OVER THEM, THOSE KINDS OF THINGS. I'M ASSUMING THAT THEY, UM, THEY APPLIED FOR THAT TREE REPLACEMENT . OKAY. I DUNNO THAT THEY HAVE AND IF NOT, YOU WOULDN'T BE REQUIRED TO. YES, THAT'S WHAT I WAS GETTING AT . OKAY. OKAY. IF YOU WANNA STEP TO THE SIDE AND I'LL OPEN IT UP. UH, FOR PUBLIC COMMENT. IF THERE'S, OH, SORRY. THE MOTION YOU CAN MOTION OPEN THE PUBLIC COMMENT. THANKS. SECOND. ALL IN FAVOR. A IF THERE'S ANYONE FROM THE PUBLIC HERE THAT WISHES TO SPEAK ON THIS APPLICATION, YOU CAN COME FORWARD NOW TO DO SO. OKAY. SEEING NO, NONE. CAN I HAVE A MOTION TO MOTION TO SECOND? ALL IN FAVOR? AYE. AYE. AYE. OKAY. YOU CAN COME BACK UP. UM, OKAY. IF NO ONE FROM THE BOARD HAS ANY OTHER QUESTIONS OR COMMENTS FOR THE APPLICANT, WE CAN MOVE FORWARD WITH A MOTION. I'LL MAKE A MOTION TO APPROVE THE APPLICATION WITH THE COMMENTED ITEMS. SECOND ROLL CALL MR. LARSON. AYE. MR. GENKI? AYE. MRS. OBER? AYE. MR. ETT AYE. VICE CHAIRMAN RICK AYE. AND MAD THE CHAIR HUMBLE. AYE. THANK YOU. THANK YOU. CONGRATULATIONS. THANK YOU. THANK YOU. GOOD LUCK . OKAY. SOMETHING THE, UH, THE NEXT APPLICATION IS RAQUEL RELO ONE PLEASANT MILL COURT BLOCK 53 0 1 0 1 LOT 25 0 8, SEEING A BULK VARIANCE FOR A SIX FOOT VINYL FENCE IN THE FRONT YARD. HELLO THERE. PLEASE RAISE YOUR RIGHT HAND. DO YOU SWEAR OR AFFIRM TELL THE TRUTH, NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH, SO HELP YOU GOD? YES. PLEASE STATE YOUR NAME AND SPELL YOUR LAST FOR THE RECORD. RAQUEL, R-A-M-I-L-E-V. AND YOU, SIR? ERIC . PLEASE SPELL YOUR LAST NAME ALSO FOR THE RECORD. I KNOW IT'S SILLY, BUT WE HAVE TO. I, I THANK YOU. AND YOU'RE THE OWNERS OF THE PROPERTY? YES. BACK TO YOU, MADAM CHAIR. THANK YOU. OKAY. TELL US ABOUT YOUR APPLICATION. OKAY, SO, UM, WE HAVE AN EXISTING SIX FOOT WHITE VINYL FENCE ON A CORNER LOT THAT, UM, WE'VE BEEN UNSUCCESSFUL IN GETTING APPROVED, UM, DUE TO THE PART OF THE FENCE THAT'S ON THE, THE SIDE YARD ALONG ROAD AND OUR, THE CORNER. UM, AND SO WE HAVE A PROPOSAL, UM, TO CHANGE THAT SIDE OF THE FENCE. UM, SOME OF THE MAIN ISSUES WITH THE CURRENT FENCE ARE THE WHITE COLOR NOT MATCHING THE SURROUNDING NATURE, THE SETBACK OF IT, THE OPACITY AND, UM, THE HEIGHT. AND SO WHAT WE'RE PROPOSING IS TO REPLACE THAT SIDE OF THE FENCE WITH A, WITH A, A DARK BROWN COLOR CALLED CLAY, WHICH YOU CAN SEE AND WHAT, HOPEFULLY YOU HAVE THE PICTURE MM-HMM . UM, IT'S A SYNTHETIC WOOD LOOKING COLOR TO BLEND IN WITH THE TREES. UM, [00:20:01] AND THEN ADDITIONALLY WE'RE PLANNING TO, UM, MOVE THE FENCE CLOSER TO THE HOUSE. SO IT WOULD BE, CURRENTLY IT'S 35 FEET FROM THE ROAD AND THE NEW SETBACK WOULD BE 60 FEET FROM THE ROAD. AND THEN FOR, TO COMPROMISE ON THE OPACITY AND HEIGHT, WE'RE PROPOSING TO HAVE A ONE FOOT LATTICE TOP, SO IT WOULD BE FIVE FEET. UM, O UM, AND THEN ADDITIONALLY WE HAVE A LANDSCAPING PROPOSAL, WHICH IS TO FURTHER CAMOUFLAGE IT. UM, WE'RE PROPOSING 20 ARMOR BODIES AND 15 ROW THE DUN DRUMS, WHICH WOULD, THEY WOULD BE STAGGERED IN, UM, A BHA TO FORM A HEDGE ALL ACROSS THAT SIDE. SO HOPEFULLY YOU WON'T SEE IT AT ALL. OKAY. SO IT'S JUST THE ONE SIDE, THE, THE REMAINING WHITE VINYL IS GONNA STAY WHERE IT IS? YES. OKAY. IT'S JUST THE ONE SIDE THAT HAS THE, THE CLAY. DOES THE, CAN THE BOARD SEE IT'S IN OUR PACKET. I JUST WANNA MAKE SURE THAT EVERYBODY KNOWS WHAT WE'RE LOOKING AT. IT WAS, UM, THREE COLORED PHOTOS IS THE PDF, UM, AND THEN THE LANDSCAPING PROPOSAL AS WELL. UM, OKAY. UH, MS. TAYLOR, DO YOU HAVE ANY COMMENTS? UM, THE BOARD SHOULD HAVE A CORRESPONDENCE THAT'S, UH, A BIT OUTDATED. WE DIDN'T WANNA, UM, BELABOR ANY POINTS WITH THIS APPLICATION. UM, WE WOULD PREFER THAT THE, UH, MEASUREMENT BE NOTED TO BE 19 FEET FROM THE HOUSE, UM, VERSUS THE 60 FEET FEET FROM THE ROAD, BECAUSE THAT'S ACTUALLY JUST THE PART. IT'S, IT'S APPROXIMATELY 40 FEET FROM THE RIGHT OF WAY. UM, THAT'S NOTED IN OUR CORRESPONDENCE. UM, WITH RESPECT TO THE PLANT MATERIALS, I THINK, UM, YOU KNOW, WE'RE, WE'RE REALLY JUST LOOKING FOR MATERIAL TO BE PLACED SO THAT IT OBSCURES THE FENCE AT THE LOWER LEVEL FROM THAT, THE ROAD. UM, AND, UH, THAT'S, AND THE ONLY OTHER THING THAT, THAT WE DID ASK FOR FROM THE APPLICANT JUST TO MAKE SURE THAT THEY DIDN'T NEED ANY OTHER VARIANCES WAS THEIR LOT COVERAGE AND THEIR 14.3%, YOU SHOULD HAVE THAT IN YOUR PACKET. MM-HMM . UM, SO WE WANTED TO MAKE SURE THAT, YOU KNOW, THEY DIDN'T BACK AGAIN. UM, AND THAT'S GONNA, UNLESS YOU HAVE SPECIFIC QUESTIONS FOR ME, UM, BUT THAT'S REALLY ALL WE HAVE. OKAY. THANK YOU. DOES ANYONE FROM THE BOARD HAVE ANY COMMENTS OR QUESTIONS? NO, I THINK THIS IS A, UM, I KNOW YOU GUYS HAVE BEEN HERE A COUPLE TIMES, SO I THINK THAT THIS IS A GOOD, GREAT COMPROMISE. I THINK IT'S GONNA LOOK GREAT. UM, OKAY. UH, IF ANYONE WANTS TO MAKE A MOTION FOR MOTION TO OPEN TO THE PUBLIC. SECOND. ALL IN FAVOR? AYE. AYE. AYE. OKAY. IF THERE'S ANYONE FROM THE PUBLIC WHO WISHES TO SPEAK ON THIS APPLICATION, YOU CAN COME FORWARD NOW AND DO SO. SEEING NONE HAVE A MOTION TO CLOSE. OBJECTION TO CLOSE. AYE. ALL IN FAVOR? AYE. OKAY. UM, DOES ANYONE FROM THE BOARD WANT TO, IF NO ONE FROM THE BOARD HAS ANY ADDITIONAL COMMENTS OR QUESTIONS, THEN I WILL ENTERTAIN A, A MOTION. CAN I JUST ASK ONE, ONE QUESTION ALSO? MM-HMM . UM, IF YOU GUYS DO APPROVE IT WITH WINTER COMING UP, WE, WE MAY NOT BE ABLE TO DO THE PLANTING RIGHT AWAY, SO JUST, I JUST WANTED THAT. YEAH, I THINK, YEAH, THAT MAKES SENSE. YOU WOULD WANNA PLANT THEM IN THE APPROPRIATE TIME SO THAT THEY DON'T DIE. UM, OKAY. ANYONE WANNA MAKE A MOTION? MOTION TO APPROVE? OKAY. I DIDN'T HEAR THE FIRST, JUST WHO SAID IT. THANK YOU. I'LL SECOND THAT. OKAY. ROLL CALL PLEASE. MR. MARON. AYE. MR. GENTILLY? AYE. MRS. OGRES? AYE. MR. HACKETT? AYE. VICE CHAIRMAN RICKERS AYE. AND MADAM CHAIR ON BOTH. AYE. THANK YOU. OKAY, CONGRATULATIONS. SORRY, THIRD TIME'S THE CHARM. WHICH ONE'S NEXT? . OKAY. NEXT ON THE AGENDA, MICHAEL LEVINTON, 1 54 TAUNTON BOULEVARD, BLOCK 33 0 9, LOT FOUR. SEEKING AN INTERPRETATION OF THE PRIOR APPROVAL AND RELIEF OF A CERTAIN CONDITION IF NECESSARY. [00:25:21] GOOD EVENING EVERYBODY. GOOD EVENING. I JUST HAVE A COUPLE OF EXHIBITS THAT I'D LIKE TO HAND OUT. CERTAINLY. DO YOU HAVE 'EM PRE-MARKED OR ARE WE INDIVIDUALLY MARKED THEM? THEY'RE ALL PRE-MARKED. LOVE IT. YEAH, YOU HAVE 'EM. DO YOU MIND PASSING THESE ON? THANK, I THINK WE SHOULD HAVE, ARE THESE NEW OR DID WE ALREADY HAVE THESE? UH, UM, THEY ARE SOME, YEAH, SOME OF THEM ARE NEW. UM, SOME OF THEM COPY OF THE PRIOR RESOLUTION. COPY OF THE PRIOR REVIEW LETTER. OF COURSE YOU HAVE SEEN, UM, A COUPLE PHOTOS OF THE PROPERTY AS EXHIBIT ONE. EXHIBIT A FOUR, UM, IS A COPY OF SOME SUPPORT THAT THE JAMESTOWN BLUE THAT THE APPLICANT HAS CHOSEN, UM, IS CAN BE CONSIDERED AN AN TO COLOR, WHICH IS THE SUBJECT OF THIS APPLICATION, MA FIVE, UM, WHICH I DON'T THINK YOU'VE SEEN ARE SOME PHOTOS OF OTHER, OF OTHER PROPERTIES IN THE THANK YOU. AND I'LL GO THROUGH THEM, UM, AS WE, AS WE GO THROUGH THE INVESTIGATION. OKAY. MAY I BEGIN? YEAH. OKAY. GOOD EVENING EVERYBODY. SORRY MR. VARGA, DO WE NEED TO COUNSEL? OKAY. ? YES. I'M FROM THE WELCOME OF LEWIS AND BURR, AND WE, UH, OUR OFFICE REPRESENTS MICHAEL LEVITON, THE APPLICANT WHO'S HERE WITH US THIS EVENING, SITTING TO MY LEFT, UH, MR. LEVITON'S, THE OWNER OF THE PROPERTY, LOCATED AT 1 54 TOTON BOULEVARD, UH, DESIGNATED AS BLOCK 33 0 9, LOT FOUR IN THE TAX MAPS. IT'S LOCATED IN THE GD GROVE DISTRICT AND IT'S ALSO LOCATED IN THE LAKE PINES COMMUNITY. UH, I KNOW THERE ARE SEVERAL OTHER APPLICATIONS THIS EVENING, SO I'M JUST GONNA GIVE A BRIEF BACKGROUND, UM, EXPLAIN THE, UH, THE NATURE OF THE APPROVAL THAT WE'RE SEEKING TONIGHT. UM, PROVIDE SOME, SOME BRIEF TESTIMONY FROM MY CLIENT AND THEN, UM, THAT THAT SHOULD BE IT. SO, JUST BRIEFLY BY WAY OF BACKGROUND, UH, ABOUT A YEAR AGO, THE APPLICANT RECEIVED SEVERAL VARIANCES FROM THIS BOARD FOR, I BELIEVE IT WAS ON DECEMBER 18TH, 2024, TO DEMOLISH AND CONSTRUCT A NEW SINGLE FAMILY DWELLING, UM, AT THE PROPERTY. UM, THE APPROVALS WERE MEMORIALIZED IN RESOLUTION 2024 DASH 49, UM, AND INCLUDED CERTAIN CONDITIONS. UM, AND THE, THE RES, THE KAI RESOLUTION IS MARKED, I BELIEVE AS EXHIBIT A TWO. UM, THAT, THAT, UM, THAT RESOLUTION, UM, WAS MEMORIALIZED OF COURSE BY THIS BOARD IN JANUARY OF 2025. UM, AND THE RELEVANT CONDITIONS, I BELIEVE ARE ON PAGE THREE OF THE RESOLUTION MARKED AS EXHIBIT A TWO. UM, IN OTHER WORDS, THE APPLICANT AGREED TO, UM, TO MAKE THE SIDING A NATURAL EARTH TONE COLOR. I BELIEVE THERE WAS SOME DISCUSSION AT THAT MEETING. UM, AT THE MEETING ON DECEMBER 18TH, 2024, THE APPLICANT HAD PROVIDED RENDERINGS OR ELEVATIONS OF THE PROPOSED NEW HOME AND THE RENDERINGS SHOWED THAT THE NEW HOME WOULD BE WHITE. UM, AND THERE WAS SOME DISCUSSION BY, BY, UM, MR. MR. TAYLOR, SCOTT TAYLOR, UM, AT THAT MEETING THAT THERE WAS SOME CONCERN THAT THE, THE PROPOSED WHITE COLOR WOULD NOT FIT INTO THE NEIGHBORHOOD. UM, THE APPLICANT WAS, WAS MORE THAN I AMENABLE TO ACCOMMODATE THAT CONCERN AND AGREED AS A CONDITION OF APPROVAL TO MAKE THE SIDING OF THE PROPOSED NEW HOME A NATURAL EARTH TONE COLOR. UM, THERE WAS ALSO THE APPLICANT ALSO AGREED AS A CONDITION OF APPROVAL TO COMPLY WITH ALL THE COMMENTS. ADMITTED, UH, THE REVIEW LETTER PREPARED BY TAYLOR DESIGN GROUP DATED OCTOBER 17TH, 2024, UM, WHICH INCLUDED A CONDITION, I BELIEVE ON PAGE THREE OF THAT REVIEW LETTER, UM, WHICH I BELIEVE IS HIGHLIGHTED AND MARKED AS EXHIBIT A THREE, THAT THE PROPOSED NEW HOME WOULD BE, UM, CONSISTENT WITH THE, THE COLOR OF, OF THE, OF NEIGHBORING PROPERTIES, NEIGHBORING HOMES, UM, IN THE LAKE PINES COMMUNITY. UM, SHORTLY AFTER THE APPLICANT OBTAINED THAT APPROVAL FROM THIS BOARD, UH, THE APPLICANT BEGAN CONSTRUCTION ON THE PROPERTY. AND IT WASN'T UNTIL ABOUT MID-JULY THAT THE APPLICANT, YOU KNOW, IT BECAME TIME FOR THE APPLICANT, MR. LEVINTON TO DECIDE WHAT COLOR TO MAKE TO MAKE THE HOME, EXCUSE ME, UM, TO THAT, THAT WAS THE TIME, MID-JULY OF THIS YEAR WHEN HE WENT TO INSTALL THE SIDING. UM, AND YOU'LL HEAR IN TESTIMONY THAT AT THAT TIME, YOU KNOW, MR. LEVINTON HAD, HAD ESSENTIALLY, YOU KNOW, PUT THE APPROVAL AND, AND, AND THE REVIEW LETTER PREPARED BY TAYLOR DESIGN GROUP, KIND OF, KIND OF AWAY. UM, HE LIKED THE COLOR BLUE AND, YOU KNOW, JAMESTOWN BLUE, I SHOULD SAY. AND THAT'S THE COLOR THAT HE CHOSE. UM, AGAIN, THAT WAS ABOUT SEVEN OR EIGHT MONTHS AFTER THE APPROVAL MEETING, UH, LAST DECEMBER. UM, NOW IN OUR VIEW, YOU KNOW, AND WE'VE, UH, PROVIDED PHOTOS OF, OF WHAT THE HOME LOOKS LIKE, OF COURSE THE [00:30:01] SIDING HAS BEEN INSTALLED IN ITS EXCHANGE TOWN BLUE COLOR. UM, IN OUR, IN OUR VIEW, YOU KNOW, HE CHOSE A NEUTRAL COLOR. UH, IT'S COMPATIBLE WITH THE, THE OTHER PROPERTIES IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD. UM, YOU CAN SEE EXHIBIT A FIVE SHOWS OTHER PROPERTIES IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD THAT ARE ALSO A BLUE COLOR. UM, YOU KNOW, THERE MUST BE FOUR OR FIVE, MAYBE EVEN MORE THAN THAT PROPERTIES, YOU KNOW, WITHIN A QUARTER OR A HALF A MILE THAT ARE ALL BLUE COLOR. UM, IT WASN'T UNTIL MID-DECEMBER OF THIS YEAR THAT MR. LEVITON, THE APPLICANT, RECEIVED A CALL FROM MS. BELL, UM, REACHED OUT TO INFORM HIM THAT, IN HER, THAT IN, IN HER OPINION AND THE BOARD PLANNER'S OPINION THAT THE JAMESTOWN BLUE DID NOT COMPLY WITH THAT CONDITION. AND THAT BRINGS US TO THE MEETING TONIGHT. AND WE ARE SEEKING A REQUEST FOR INTERPRETATION FROM THIS BOARD OF THE JAMESTOWN BLUE SIDING OF THE HOME THAT YOU CAN SEE ON EXHIBIT A ONE, UM, CAN REASONABLY CONSIDERED, CAN REASONABLY BE CONSIDERED A NATURAL EARTH TONE COLOR. UM, SO WE'RE SEEKING A, A REQUEST FOR INTERPRETATION FROM THIS BOARD. AND IN THE ALTERNATIVE, IF THE BOARD DETERMINES THAT THE JAMESTOWN BLUE SIDING IS NOT A NATURAL EARTH TONE COLOR, THEN WE'RE SEEKING RELIEF FROM THE CONDITION OF APPROVAL THAT THE APPLICANT AGREED TO, TO MAKE THE, TO MAKE THE SIDING OF THE HOME A NATURAL EARTH TONE COLOR. NOW, AS I STATED, EXHIBIT A ONE SHOWS THE PHOTOS OF, OF WHAT THE HOME LOOKS LIKE TODAY. UM, AND EXHIBIT A FOUR, I BELIEVE, UM, SHOWS A, A A BUNCH OF DIFFERENT, UM, A BUNCH OF SUPPORT FOR THE CONTENTION THAT JAMESTOWN BLUE CAN BE CONSIDERED A A, A NATURAL HER TONE COLOR. UM, SO TURN IT TO EXHIBIT A FOUR BRIEFLY. UM, YOU SEE, AND, AND LEMME JUST GIVE YOU ALL AMEN TO THAT EXHIBIT WHILE IVY AS WELL. UM, IT'S TOWARDS THE END OF YOUR PACKET. IT'S THREE PAGES. YOU CAN SEE THERE'S PLENTY OF SUPPORT THAT, OR THERE, THERE ARE PLENTY OF SOURCES THAT SUPPORT THE IDEA THAT THIS JAMESTOWN BLUE COLOR CAN BE CONSIDERED NORTH TONE COLOR. UM, YOU SEE HGTV BY SHERWIN WILLIAMS, UM, STATES THAT DEEP BLUES ARE NATURAL EARTH ARE, ARE EARTH TONE COLORS, UH, LIVING SPACES, WHICH IS AN INTERIOR DESIGN COMPANY, STATES THAT SOME COLOR EXPERTS CONSIDER EARTH TONES TO, TO INCLUDE SKY AND WATER. IN OTHER WORDS, BLUE. UM, EA PRO PAINTERS, WHICH IS PAINTING COMPANY CONSIDERS, UM, UH, UH, BLUE TO BE A NATURAL EARTH TONE COLOR. UH, LIVING SPACES, WHICH IS ANOTHER INTERIOR DESIGN COMPANY, STATES THAT SOME COLOR EXPERTS CONSIDER EARTH TONE COLORS, UM, OR EARTH TONES TO INCLUDE SKY AND WATER. UM, ART AND CONTEXT, WHICH IS A HOLISTIC ART ENCYCLOPEDIA, UM, STATES THAT EARTH TONES CAN RANGE FROM SHADES OF BROWN TO GRAY AND BLUE, UH, STONE SIDE, ALBEIT ANOTHER INTERIOR DESIGNER, CONSIDERS A MARINE DEEP NAVY AND DARK BLUES TO BE EARTH STONE COLORS. UM, AND, AND SO REALLY THE BOTTOM LINE IS IN, IN THIS CASE, WE FEEL THAT THE APPLICANT'S CHOSEN A VERY NATURAL COLOR. UM, IT'S A COLOR THAT THAT LOOKS NICE. UM, AND, AND WE'D ASK THE BOARD TO CONSIDER THE SOURCES THAT WE'VE PROVIDED, UM, IN SUPPORT OF THE IDEA THAT THE, THE JAMESTOWN BLUE COLOR THAT THAT CURRENTLY EXISTS ON THE HOME CAN BE CONSIDERED A NATURAL EARTH TONE COLOR. WE ASK THE BOARD TO CONSIDER THAT IN MAKING THEIR, UM, THEIR DETERMINATION THAT, OR THEIR INTERPRETATION THAT THE APPLICANT DOES IN FACT COMPLY WITH THE CONDITION OF APPROVAL THAT, THAT THE SIDING OF THE HOME BE AN EARTH TONE COLOR. UM, IN THE EVENT THAT THE BOARD DOES NOT FIND THAT THE JAMESTOWN BLUE SIDING THAT EXISTS ON THE HOME TODAY IS NOT A NATURAL EARTH TONE COLOR, UM, THEN, THEN WILL PROVIDE SOME ADDITIONAL TESTIMONY. UM, AND, AND, AND, WE'LL, WE WILL ESSENTIALLY TAKE IT FROM THERE. SO THE, THE FIRST PORTION OF THIS APPLICATION IS A REQUEST FROM, FOR INTERPRETATION FROM THIS BOARD CONFIRMING, UM, THAT THE JAMESTOWN BLUE SIDE IS IN FACT A NATURAL EARTH. THANK YOU MS. TAYLOR. THANK YOU. MAD CHAIR. UH, WHAT WAS THE COLOR OF THE CARD? WELL, MR. LEVITON, IT WAS A LOG CABIN TYPE COLOR. LET SWEAR I'M IN. YEAH, PLEASE, SIR. RAISE YOUR RIGHT HAND. DO YOU SWEAR OR AFFIRM TELL THE TRUTH, NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH, SO HELP YOU? GOD. YOUR NAME IS MICHAEL LEVINTON. YES. PLEASE STATE YOUR NAME AND SPELL YOUR LAST FOR THE RECORD. MICHAEL LEVINTON, LE TN TO. AND YOU'RE GONNA JUST NEED TO SPEAKING IN THE MICROPHONE WHEN YOU TALK. MICHAEL LEVINTON, L-E-V-E-N-T-O-N. THANK YOU, MS. TAYLOR. I BELIEVE YOUR QUESTION WAS, WHAT COLOR WAS THE HOUSE ORIGINALLY CORRECT? TAN, BROWN, AND BROWN. SO WAS IT A OR BROWN? BROWN, I BELIEVE. UM, WE DID NOT PROVIDE PHOTOS OF, OF THE PROPERTY ON THAT. I HAVE IMAGES FROM THE PRIOR APPROVAL AND OUR, OUR CORRESPONDENCE, UM, IS NOT NEUTRAL WITH RESPECT TO THE STATEMENT. IT SIMPLY SAYS THAT IT SHOULD BEARY TO THE EXISTING CHARACTER PRIOR STRUCTURE. THE PRIOR STRUCTURE WAS TANNED WITH, UM, A RIVER ROCK, UH, FIREPLACE. UM, THE INCLINATION IS THAT IT WAS A WARM COLOR. SO, UM, WE WERE NOT COMFORTABLE, [00:35:01] UH, ADMINISTRATIVELY APPROVING THAT, UM, BECAUSE WE DIDN'T THINK I MET THE INTENT OF THE CONVERSATION THAT WAS HELD BEFORE THAT EVENING OR THE CORRESPONDENCE. SO WE WEREN'T COMFORTABLE ADMINISTRATIVELY APPROVING THAT CHANGE. UM, CAN YOU REPEAT BELIEVE THAT BLUE IS NORTH TONE COLOR OKAY. IS NOT A WARM OR OKAY. CAN YOU REPEAT IT? IT SIMPLY SAYS THAT THE, SAYS THAT THE STATEMENT OF THE CORRESPONDENCE SAYS, ARE YOU REFERRING TO YOUR REVIEW LETTER? YES. YEAH. OKAY. UM, TESTIMONY SHOULD BE PROVIDED REGARDING THE PROPOSED ARCHITECTURE AND COLORS OF THE STRUCTURE, WHICH SHOULD BE COMPLIMENTARY TO THE EXISTING CHARACTER OF THE PRIOR STRUCTURE. OKAY. IT GOES ON TO TALK ABOUT OTHER, OTHER THINGS WITH RESPECT TO THE GENERAL DESIGN OF THE DWELLING, WHICH, UM, THE BOARD DID NOT REQUIRE ANY MODIFICATIONS TO. OKAY. BUT YOU DON'T DISAGREE THAT THE COLOR IT CURRENTLY IS, IS NOT CONSIDERED, IT IS AN EARTH EARTH TONE. IT'S HOWEVER, NOT EVEN WARM EARTH TONE COLOR, WHICH IS WHAT THE PRIOR STRUCTURE WAS, RIGHT? WELL, THE PRIOR STRUCTURE WAS, YOU KNOW, IT IT WAS A LIGHTISH PAN COLOR. YOU KNOW, I GUESS, YOU KNOW, REASONABLE MINDS CAN DIFFER AS TO WHETHER OR NOT THE PRIOR STRUCTURE WAS A WARM COLOR AND THE, AND THE EXISTING STRUCTURE WAS A WARM COLOR. UH, MIND NO, I I I HAVE CLOTHES RIGHT HERE. I CAN PULL THEM OUT AND PASS THEM AROUND TO THE BOARD. WE HAVE IT, WE HAVE IT, WE HAVE IT UP ON MULTIPLE COMPUTERS HERE. SO WHAT IS, UM, SEEKING AN INTERPRETATION OF THE PRIOR APPROVAL AND RELIEF. SO WE'RE NOT HERE TO DISPUTE WHETHER THE CURRENT COLOR IS EARTH TONE OR NOT. SO WHAT THE INTERPRETATION IS, IS SO THE CONDITION OF APPROVAL IS VERY CLEAR, AND IT INDICATES THAT THE COLOR OF THE STRUCTURE IS REQUIRED TO BE A WARM EARTH TONE COLOR. SO THE INTERPRETATION THAT IS BEING ASKED IS THIS JAMESTOWN BLUE, A QUOTE, WARM EARTH TONE COLOR. IT DOESN'T SAY WARM, IT DOESN'T SAY WARM IN THE, UH, IN THE RESOLUTION IT SAYS NATURAL EARTH TONE, NOR NOR DOES IT IN, IN THE REVIEW LETTER. JUST TO BE CLEAR, I MEAN, I KNOW THE TONES WARM WAS USED. I WAS HERE FOR THE MEETING. HOWEVER, CORRECT. AND, AND I BELIEVE THAT CONVERSATION REVOLVED AROUND, YOU KNOW, THAT THE, THE BOARD, MR. TAYLOR'S CONCERNED THAT, THAT THE ELEVATION SHOWED THAT THE HOME WAS WHITE. UM, AND SO HE AGREED AS, OR THE APPLICANT AGREED AS A CONDITION OF APPROVAL TO MAKE IT A, I GUESS A WARM TONE COLOR. UM, BUT, BUT AGAIN, YES, THE, THE WORD WARM DOES NOT APPEAR IN THE RESOLUTION, NOR DOES IT A REVIEW LETTER, BUT IT WAS A PART OF THE RECORD AND IT WAS A PART OF THE TESTIMONY AT THE END OF THE DAY. IT WAS A WARM, SO THE, THE REAL QUESTION IS, SORRY, IS JAMES TOWN BLUE A WARM EARTH TONE COLOR? IF IT'S NOT, THEN THE INTERPRETATION WOULD THEN RESULT INTO THE RELIEF QUESTION, RIGHT. CAN, SHOULD THE BOARD GRANT RELIEF? RIGHT. AND SO LET'S GET FIRST TO THE INTERPRETATION, INTERPRETATION OF WHETHER WE THINK THAT THIS CALLER CURRENTLY IS CONSIDERED WARM. DOES THE BOARD, HAS ANYONE FROM THE BOARD BEFORE I SAY MY COMMENT, HAVE ANY POSITION WITH ANY POSITION ON WHETHER THIS IS WARM, A WARM EARTH TONE? IT'S, IT'S, IT'S BLACK AND WHITE. IT'S NOT A WARM EARTH TONE COLOR. OKAY. IT'S NOT A, I AGREE. OKAY. SO THAT'S, UH, I THINK THEN WE NEED TO, DO WE NEED TO MAKE A MOTION THAT THAT'S NOT A WARM TO NO, NO, BECAUSE IT'S, WE'RE ONLY GONNA DO ONE MOTION OUR, OUR AGREEMENT. SO WE COULD DO IT AS A HOW DETAILED DO WE NEED TO BE HERE? SO IT'S, THERE'S TWO POINT PARTS OF THIS APPLICATION, BUT THERE'S ONLY ONE MOTION THAT'S GONNA BE MADE. MM-HMM . IS EITHER A, IS THE BOARD GONNA INTERPRET AND DETERMINE THAT THIS JAMESTOWN BLUE IS A WARM EARTH TONE COLOR OR, AND OR B GRANT RELIEF TO, FROM THE CONDITION REQUIRING TO BE A WARM EARTH TONE COLOR AND JUST PERMITTED TO BE AN EARTH TONE COLOR? GENERALLY. OKAY. OR SEE, DENY IT. WELL, WELL DO WE NEED TO HEAR ADDITIONAL TESTIMONY, BUT MR. VARGA, I, I'D ASK THE BOARD FIRST, UH, RULE ON, ON THE INTERPRETATION ISSUE, IF THEY FIND THAT THE PROPOSED COLOR IS NOT A WARMER TONE COLOR, UH, I WOULD LIKE TO PUT ON ADDITIONAL TESTIMONY OKAY. FROM MY CLIENT JUST BRIEFLY. CERTAINLY THAT OFF IN SUPPORT OF OUR, AND THAT'S WHAT I WAS JUST MOVING TOWARDS. CORRECT. YES, I UNDERSTAND THAT. AND I THINK WE'RE GONNA MOVE FORWARD, BUT THAT, NO, THIS IS NOT CONSIDERED A WARM EARTH TONE COLOR, BUT WE WILL HEAR ADDITIONAL TESTIMONY FOR THE RELIEF REQUESTED. UNDERSTOOD. SO, SO DOES THE, WILL THE BOARD BE VOTING ON THE, THE INTERPRETATION ISSUE FIRST? NO, WE'RE ONLY GONNA MAKE ONE MOTION. ONE MOTION. THE DISCUSSION FROM THE BOARD AND THE COMMENTS YOU'VE RECEIVED IS THAT IT'S, IF YOU WANT US TO VOTE ON IT, YOU KNOW WHAT THE ANSWER'S GONNA BE. YES. , I THINK THAT'S BEEN MADE CLEAR. I APPRECIATE THAT. THANK YOU. UM, OKAY. SO, SO OBVIOUSLY THE, THE BOARD HAS FOUND THAT, THAT THE, UH, THE JAMESTOWN BLUE SCOUTING ON THE HOME AS SHOWN IN EXHIBIT A ONE IS NOT A WARM EARTH TONE COLOR. UM, SO WE'RE GONNA BE SEEKING RELIEF FROM THE CONDITION OF APPROVAL THAT REQUIRED THAT THE APPLICANT CONSTRUCT OR INSTALL SIDING THAT IS A WARM EARTH TONE COLOR. [00:40:01] UM, AND IT'S SUPPORTIVE THAT, THAT REQUEST FOR RELIEF. I JUST HAVE A FEW QUICK QUESTIONS I'D LIKE TO, TO, TO ASK MY CLIENT TO COME UP AND TESTIFY. OKAY. UM, JUST BRIEFLY. OKAY. MR. LEVINTON, UH, WERE YOU PRESENT FOR MY OPENING REMARKS? YES. AND WERE THEY SURE ENOUGH TO THE BEST OF YOUR KNOWLEDGE? YEAH. OKAY. CAN YOU JUST EXPLAIN FOR THE BOARD, UM, YOU KNOW, YOUR MINDSET AND SORT OF WHAT, WHAT HAPPENED AFTER YOU RECEIVED THE APPROVALS ON DECEMBER 18TH OF LAST YEAR, UP TO THE POINT WHERE YOU WERE, YOU KNOW, AND I BELIEVE WAS MID JULY OF THIS YEAR WHEN YOU WERE CHOOSING WHAT, WHAT SIGN TO INSTALL HOME? UH, I WAS THRILLED TO GET THE APPROVAL BACK IN, UH, DECEMBER OF LAST YEAR. UH, THE PROPERTY HAD BEEN RENTED FOR TWO YEARS. UM, IT WAS DETERMINED THAT WE COULDN'T RENOVATE THE PROPERTY, THE FOUNDATION, UM, THE BUILDER WOULDN'T ALLOW THAT AS WELL, MY ARCHITECT AND SUGGESTED THAT WE PUT UP A NEW HOME, ONE THAT WOULD BE A THREE BEDROOM, TWO BED WORK, CONDUCIVE BED, THE ONE BEDROOM, ONE BED THAT WAS THERE THAT I HAD RENTED OUT FOR A NUMBER OF YEARS. THE RENTER MOVED OUT THE END OF FEBRUARY. I HONESTLY, AND I MADE THE MISTAKE AND I APOLOGIZE, DIDN'T REALLY THINK ANYMORE ABOUT THE RESOLUTION. WE STARTED CONSTRUCTION, I THINK SPRING, MAY, ET CETERA, AROUND JULY. THE SIDE, I, I LIKE THE COLOR BLUE. I THINK IT'S A, A VERY NICE COLOR. I THINK IT MAKES A NICE CURB APPEAL. I FEEL THAT IT DOES FIT INTO THE NEIGHBORHOOD. MID JULY, THE SIDING WENT UP, I THINK AROUND THE 23RD OF SEPTEMBER, I GOT A CALL FROM THE ZONING OFFICE THAT I BRING A SAMPLE OF THE SIDING IN FOR IT TO BE DETERMINED IF IT'S AN EARTH TONE COLOR. I BELIEVE THE NEXT DAY, IT COULD HAVE BEEN A DAY OR TWO AFTER THAT I WAS TOLD THAT IT IS NOT, AND THEN I WOULD NEED TO COME BEFORE THE BOARD AGAIN TO STATE MY CASE. TWO MONTHS HAD GONE BY WHEN THE SIGNING WENT UP UNTIL THE 23RD OF SEPTEMBER, I, I WAS SHOCKED. OKAY. AND, AND, AND YOU KNOW, YOU, YOU MADE A MISTAKE IS THE BOTTOM LINE, CORRECT? YES. AND YOU KNOW, THERE HAD BEEN EIGHT MONTHS THAT HAD PASSED SINCE WHEN YOU GOT THE APPROVAL DECEMBER OF LAST YEAR, UP TO THE POINT WHERE, UH, WHEN YOU WERE, YOU KNOW, DECIDING WHAT SIDE TO DECIDING WHAT SIDE TO INSTALL ON THE HOME. CORRECT. AND, YOU KNOW, YOU JUST HAD FORGOTTEN THAT YOU WOULD AGREED TO THAT CONDITION, CORRECT? YES. YEAH. OKAY. AND YOU WERE, YOU THOUGHT THAT YOU WERE CHOOSING A, A COLOR, A SIDING COLOR THAT WAS A NEUTRAL COLOR AND THAT THAT FIT IN WITH THE NEIGHBORHOOD, CORRECT? YES. OKAY. UM, AND, AND, AND YOUR VIEW, THE SIDING THAT THE COLOR OF THE SIDING THAT YOU CHOSE IS CONSISTENT WITH OTHER, UH, THE COLOR OF OTHER HOMES IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD? CORRECT. AGAIN, I WAS SHOCKED AND I DID SOME RESEARCH AFTERWARD AND DRIVING AROUND THE NEIGHBORHOOD AND LOOKING AT SOME OF THE OTHER HOMES. AND, AND, AND THOSE OTHER HOMES ARE CONTAINED IN WHAT I'VE MARKED AS EXHIBIT EIGHT FIVE, CORRECT? YES. AND EACH OF THESE HOMES ARE ALL LOCATED WITHIN ROUGHLY A HALF A MILE OF YOUR HOME, CORRECT? YES. AND THEY'RE ALL LOCATED IN THE GD, UH, GENERAL GROWTH DISTRICT? YES. UM, GROWTH DISTRICT, EXCUSE ME. YOUR GD DISTRICT? CORRECT. OKAY. AND, AND YOU KNOW, YOU'VE BEEN, YOU, YOU'VE RECEIVED A QUOTE FROM YOUR CONTRACTOR FOR THE CAUSE THAT, THAT, THAT IT WOULDN'T, UH, REQUIRE FOR YOU TO EITHER PAINT OR INSTALL NEW SIDE OF YOUR HOME, CORRECT? YES. YES, I HAVE. AND THAT FLOW RANGES FROM SOMEWHERE BETWEEN 20 AND 30,000, CORRECT? YES. OKAY. UH, AND THE CONSTRUCTION, SINCE YOU GOT THE APPROVALS LAST DECEMBER TO THE CONSTRUCTION CLIENT WITH, UM, THE APPROVALS THAT YOU RECEIVED AND THE CODE, CORRECT? YES. OKAY. UM, THAT'S ALL THE QUESTIONS I HAD FOR MR. LEVITON. I, I, I WOULD JUST LIKE TO SAY, UM, BEFORE WE OPEN IT UP TO THE PUBLIC OR THE BOARD, THE BOARD HAS ANY, ANY ADDITIONAL QUESTIONS? UH, YOU KNOW, I THINK IT'S, IT'S CLEAR, UM, AFTER THE BOARD VOTED, UM, AND, AND YOU KNOW, AFTER SEEING THAT THE SOURCES THAT WE PROVIDED IN SUPPORT OF THE IDEA THAT THIS JAMESTOWN BLUE CAN REASONABLY CONSIDER IT A BE A, UH, CAN REASONABLY BE CONSIDERED A NATURAL EARTH TONE COLOR, YOU KNOW, REASONABLE MINDS CAN DIFFER AS TO WHAT EARTH TONE WARM EARTH TONE MEANS. RIGHT. YOU KNOW, IT'S A PRETTY BIG CONDITION OF APPROVAL. UM, YOU KNOW, I THINK MY CLIENT ADEQUATELY EXPLAINED THAT, YOU KNOW, EIGHT MONTHS HAD PASSED SINCE, YOU KNOW, HE HAD OBTAINED THE APPROVALS AND WENT TO INSTALL THE SIDING. HE MADE A HONEST MISTAKE. UM, THAT BEING SAID, HE DID CHOOSE A NATURAL COLOR, UM, A NEUTRAL COLOR, I SHOULD SAY. UM, YOU KNOW, UH, THIS BLUE COLOR IS FOUND ALL, ALL IN NATURE. IT'S IN THE SKY, IT'S IN THE WATER. UM, WE, WE THINK IT IS A, A NICE LOOKING COLOR. IT'S A NEUTRAL COLOR. IT'S NOT LIKE HE CHOSE SOME BRIGHT OR ORANGE COLOR. UM, [00:45:01] AND HE MADE A MISTAKE. SO WE ASKED THE BOARD TO CONSIDER THAT ONE, YOU KNOW, DETERMINING WHETHER OR NOT TO GRANT THE LEASE REQUESTED. THANK YOU. THANK YOU. OKAY. SO OBVIOUSLY IT'S, WE'RE MOVING PAST THAT IT'S NOT COMPLIMENTARY TO THE EXISTING STRUCTURE THAT IT WAS, UM, BUT AGREEING THAT IT IS CONSIDERED A NATURAL EARTH TONE, CORRECT? CORRECT. OKAY. THAT BEING SAID, DOES THE, DOES ANYONE FROM THE BOARD HAVE ANY COMMENTS, THOUGHTS? MY QUESTION IS COMPATIBILITY WITH THE OTHER HOMES. EVEN IF I'M LOOKING AT THE PHOTOGRAPH AND I'VE SEEN THE HOUSE MM-HMM . BUT I'M LOOKING RIGHT NEXT DOOR. THOSE ARE MORE, UH, WHEN WE TALK ABOUT EARTH ZONE, GROUND, BEIGE, LOG CABIN. WELL, AND SO JUST A MOMENT. YEAH. AND SO THAT, THAT JAMESTOWN BLUE REALLY STANDS OUT FROM THE REST OF THE HOMES ON, ON TOP. WELL, WELL FIRST OF ALL, THE HOME IMMEDIATELY TO THE LEFT OF THE SUBJECT PROPERTY IS A WHAT COLOR? THERE'S A BRAND NEW HOME IMMEDIATELY ACROSS THE STREET FROM THE PROPERTY, WHICH IS SOME, UH, LIKE A DARK GRAYISH COLOR. YES. THE HOME THAT, THAT, UH, MY CLIENT DECIDED TO, TO, TO, YOU KNOW, THE, THE COLOR THAT MY CLIENT DECIDED TO USE FOR THE SIDING OF THE HOME, YOU KNOW, IT'S A BLUE COLOR WITH GRAY UNDERTONE. UM, AND I'D REFER YOU TO EXHIBIT A FIVE, WHICH SHOWS PHOTOS OF AT LEAST FIVE OTHER, MAYBE MORE THAN FIVE OTHER PROPERTIES IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD THAT ARE ALL DIFFERENT SHADES OF BLUE. YOU HAVE THREE PINES, A DARK BLUE, 2 0 5 PINES OF BLUE, 1 68 COTTON IS SORT OF AN AQUA BLUE OR BRIGHT BLUE. AND THESE HOMES ARE ALL LOCATED, YOU KNOW, WITHIN LESS THAN A HALF A MILE FROM THE SUBJECT PROPERTY. UM, AND SO FOR THOSE REASONS, WE DO THINK THAT IT, IT, IT IS COMPATIBLE WITH THE, UH, THE COLORS OF, YOU KNOW, NEIGHBOR HOMES. HAS THE CO BEEN ISSUED, NO, CONSTRUCTION IS NOT CORRECT. CORRECT. OKAY. ANY, UH, DOES ANYONE ELSE HAVE ANY THOUGHTS? IS THIS THE C ONE FOR ANY QUESTION? NO, MADAM CHAIR, IT IS STRICTLY IN THE EVENT THAT WAS, THIS WOULD PROCEED TO A MOTION GRANTING RELIEF. IT WOULD BE TO EXCISE THE CONDITION OF APPROVAL FROM THE RESOLUTION 2024 DASH 49, REQUIRING THE SIDING BE A WARM EARTH TONE, UH, WITH THE UNDERSTANDING THAT THE SIDING WILL BE JAMES TOWN BLUE. OKAY. SO WE REALLY ARE LIMITED IN THE TESTIMONY THAT WE CAN CONSIDER. WELL, NOT NECESSARILY BECAUSE THE, ONE OF THE FOCUSES OF THE AESTHETICS AND THE ARCHITECTURALS OF THE DEVELOPMENT, OR THIS HOUSE WHEN IT CAME TO THE BOARD WAS THE COLOR. 'CAUSE THERE WERE CERTAIN VARIANCES THAT WERE REQUIRED. SO THE IMPACT ON THE NEIGHBORHOOD SCHEME, UM, UNDER THE C TWO CRITERIA, UM, HOW THOSE COLORS MATCHED PURPOSES OF ZONING, THE AESTHETICS, THOSE ARE ALL THINGS THAT THE BOARD CONSIDERED WHEN IT IMPOSED THE CONDITION. UM, SO THAT'S WHY THE, WHAT THE RELIEF IS GONNA BE BALANCED AGAINST WHEN YOU GUYS GRANTED THE CONDITION, GRANTED THE VARIANCES YOU DID SO WITH, WHEN YOU BALANCED THE POSITIVE VERSUS THE NEGATIVE CRITERIA. AND SO WITH THAT IN MIND IS GRANTING RELIEF FROM THAT CONDITION TO PERMIT THE JAMESTOWN BLUE, STILL CONSISTENT WITH THE BOARD'S PRIOR APPROVAL THAT THERE WOULD BE NO DETRIMENTAL IMPACT ON THE NEIGHBORHOOD. RIGHT. UM, AND THAT'S REALLY WHERE YOU'RE AT. IT DOESN'T REALLY, THERE'S NO NEW VARIANCE TESTIMONY 'CAUSE THE VARIANCES WERE GRANTED. OKAY. BUT THEY WERE GRANTED SUBJECT TO COMPLYING WITH THAT CONDITION. MM-HMM . UNDERSTOOD. AND, AND IT'S, IT WAS VERY, VERY SMALL A LOT. I MEAN, WE HAVE OUR CORRESPONDENCE MM-HMM . OF VARIANCES REQUIRED MM-HMM . SO AS IS OF THE TALK ABOUT THINGS LIKE THAT EXCEPTIONS BUILDINGS TO BE PROFILE AS POSSIBLE, UM, RIGHT. ON A, ON A 6,012 LOT, AND I, I I, I WOULD JUST ADD THAT, UM, YOU KNOW, A AGAIN, YOU KNOW, MY CLIENT MADE AN HONEST MISTAKE. IT'S NOT LIKE HE, YOU KNOW, HAD HAD HIS MIND SET WHEN AGREEING TO THAT CONDITION OF APPROVAL THAT, YOU KNOW, HE'S NOT GONNA COMPLY WITH IT. YOU KNOW, IT WAS EIGHT MONTHS AFTER THE, THE APPROVALS WERE GRANTED. UM, YOU KNOW, HE SHOWED COLOR THAT HE THOUGHT WOULD LOOK NICE, THAT HE THOUGHT WAS NATURAL OR NEUTRAL, I SHOULD SAY. UM, AND SO WE ASKED TO TAKE THAT INTO CONSIDERATION WHEN VOTED. AND DID, DID SOMEONE SAY THAT THERE WAS A, A HOUSE, A HOME ACROSS THE STREET THAT WAS SIMILAR, SIMILAR COLOR? IT'S COLOR GRAY. IT'S LIKE A GRAY, BLUE, WHATEVER YOU WANNA CALL IT. OKAY. IT'S, THAT'S ALL. IS THAT UNDER CONSTRUCTION? WELL, IT'S NOT NOW, I'M SURE, BUT IT'S BEEN, IT'S COMPLETED, BUT IT'S DARN CLOSE. BUT YOU CAN SEE THE SIDING ON THAT ONE. IT'S A LITTLE LIGHTER, BUT YEAH, IT'S GRAY. [00:50:01] YEAH. OKAY. OKAY. BEFORE I OPEN IT UP TO THE PUBLIC, DOES ANYONE ELSE FROM THE BOARD HAVE ANY COMMENTS? OKAY. UH, CAN I HAVE A MOTION TO OPEN IT TO THE PUBLIC? MOTION TO OPEN TO THE PUBLIC SECOND. ALL IN FAVOR? AYE. AYE. AYE. OKAY. IF THERE'S ANYONE FROM THE PUBLIC WHO WISHES TO SPEAK ON THIS APPLICATION, YOU MAY COME FORWARD NOW TO DO SO. YES, THANK YOU. I BELIEVE THERE MAY BE MORE THAN ONE. OKAY. SIR, WAIT, BEFORE YOU BEGIN, YOU JUST NEED TO COME TO THE MICROPHONE. I NEED TO SWEAR YOU IN. YES, SIR. AND THEN WE CAN START. ALRIGHT, SIR, PLEASE RAISE YOUR RIGHT HAND. DO YOU SWEAR OR AFFIRM TO TELL THE TRUTH AND NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH, SO HELP YOU GOD? PLEASE STATE YOUR NAME AND SPELL YOUR LAST FOR THE RECORD. ROBERT KRAMER. K-R-A-M-E-R. AND YOUR ADDRESS, SIR? 1 52 TAUNTON NORTH NEIGHBOR. ALL RIGHT. TAKE IT AWAY. UH, MAY I PLACE THIS IN FRONT OF THE ELECTRON HERE? CERTAINLY. WE'LL MARK THAT AS EXHIBIT OH ONE FOR THE RECORD. YES. YOU HAVE A PACKET WITH CORRESPONDING PICTURES IF ANYONE ON THE BOARD WOULD LIKE TO, TO VIEW. SURE. AND JUST GIVE HOW, GIVE ONE SECOND. COUNSEL OR COUNSEL JUST WANTS TO SEE IT UP HERE. UH, GO AHEAD. THEY CAN SEE IT. FIRST I'LL CIRCLE BACK. THANK YOU. FOR THE RECORD, WE'RE MARKED THE PACKET AS EXHIBIT OH ONE. WELL, THANK YOU VERY MUCH, UH, FOR HEARING ME TONIGHT. UM, I DO HAVE A STATEMENT I'D LIKE TO READ, BUT I WOULD LIKE TO MAKE A COUPLE COMMENTS FIRST BASED ON THINGS THAT COUNSEL SAID, NOTHING AGAINST, AGAINST WHAT YOU SAID, UM, BUT JUST TO CLARIFY CERTAIN THINGS. YES. 1 68 IS A BLUE HOUSE. THE OTHER FOUR OR SO BLUE HOUSES ARE PRETTY MUCH RESTRICTED TO THE MOST SOUTHERN END OF THE, UH, RESIDENTIAL AREA OF TALKING BOULEVARD. UM, 1 54 EXISTS AT THE SECOND TO THE MOST NORTHERN END, AND THERE ARE NO BLUE HOUSES IN THAT AREA BESIDES 1 68 ON THE FURTHEST CORNER OF BLOCK OR TWO DOWN. UM, THE HOUSES ON THAT BLOCK ARE A TAN CABIN AT ONE 50, WHICH IS THE SAME CA SAME COLOR AS THE CABIN THAT EXISTED AT 1 54 BEFORE MY HOUSE IS BROWN AT 1 52. UM, MR. MU'S HOUSE AT 1 56 IS NOT WHITE. IT IS A LIGHT GRAY CABIN AND THE CORNER 1 56 IS A BROWN CABIN. THE NEW BUILD FROM A FEW YEARS AGO DIRECTLY ACROSS THE STREET IS GRAY. IT IS NOT A BLUE. IT IS MOST DEFINITELY VERY VERIFIABLY GRAY. AND THE TWO HOUSES NEXT TO THAT ARE BOTH OLD BROWN LOCK CABINS. UH, WITH THAT BEING SAID, UM, WE ARE HERE AS CONCERNED CITIZENS AND NEIGHBORS TO EXPRESS A SIGNIFICANT VISUAL AND PERSONAL IMPACT. THE NEWLY CONSTRUCTED HOME AT 1 54 TAUNTON BOULEVARD HAS HAD ON OUR PROPERTY AND COMMUNITY. WHEN THE ORIGINAL MEETING CONCERNING THIS PROPERTY WAS SCHEDULED FOR NOVEMBER OF LAST YEAR, THE RESIDENTS THAT RECEIVED NOTICES HAD ALL PLANNED ON ATTENDING. WHEN THE MEETING WAS CANCELED, WE WERE ALL UNDER THE ASSUMPTION THAT WOULD, WE WOULD BE NOTIFIED A SECOND TIME OF WHEN THE MEETING CONCERNING THE PROPERTY IN QUESTION WOULD BE HELD. UNFORTUNATELY, THAT NOTICE WAS NEVER SENT, SO NONE OF US EVER ATTENDED THAT MEETING. UH, SO WE HAVE ALL RELIED ON THE VIDEO RECORDING FROM THAT DECEMBER MEETING FOR OUR INFORMATION. WHILE WE RESPECT THE RIGHTS OF THE OWNER TO BUILD ON THAT LOT, THE EXECUTION OF THIS PROJECT IS DEVIATED FROM WHAT WAS PRESENTED AT THE VARIANCE HEARING IN MORE THAN ONE WAY BEYOND JUST THE COLOR. UH, FIRST AND FOREMOST, THE FIRST FLOOR OF THE HOME WAS BUILT APPROXIMATELY TWO FEET HIGHER THAN INDICATED ON THE ORIGINAL SITE PLAN, AS YOU CAN SEE THERE AND ON, UH, ON THE BOARD BELOW. WHEREAS THE ORIGINAL SITE PLAN SHOWS ON THE ONE STEP UP TO THE FRONT ENTRANCE THE SAME AS THE PREVIOUS LOCKED CABIN ON THE PROPERTY HAD. YOU CAN SEE THIS PICTURE, THERE ARE ABOUT FOUR STEPS UP, MEANING THERE'S ABOUT A TWO FOOT DIFFERENCE. UH, THE TWO FEET HAVE MADE A WORLD OF DIFFERENCE IN TERM OF OUR PRIVACY AND DAILY EXPERIENCE. THE ELEVATED STRUCTURE COMBINED WITH A RAISED BACK DECK MEANS THAT ANYONE STANDING AT THE REAR OF THE HOUSE IS NOW LOOKING DIRECTLY OVER OUR FENCE LINE WITH A CLEAR VIEW INTO OUR YARD AND OUR WINDOWS ALSO AS CAN BE SEEN IN THE PICTURES OF THE FORMER STRUCTURE NEXT TO THE PICTURES OF THE NEW STRUCTURE, THE WINDOWS OF THE PREVIOUS STRUCTURE START AT APPROXIMATELY TWO AND A HALF TO THREE FEET ABOVE GROUND LEVEL AND EXTEND TO ABOUT JUST OVER SIX FEET. YOU CAN JUST PEEK THEM OVER OUR SIX FOOT PRIVACY FENCE. UH, THE ELEVATED FIRST FLOOR ON THE NEW STRUCTURE NOW MEANS THAT THE WINDOWS START AT APPROXIMATELY FIVE TO FIVE AND A HALF AND EXTEND TO OVER EIGHT FEET. ONCE AGAIN, MAKING OUR FULL YARD AND WINDOWS CLEARLY VISIBLE FROM EACH WINDOW ON THE NORTH SIDE OF THE HOUSE, IT NO LONGER FEELS LIKE WE LIVE IN THE QUIET WOODED COMMUNITY THAT WE MOVED INTO TWO YEARS AGO. IT NOW FEELS LIKE WE'RE LIVING IN A TIGHT ROW HOME SITUATION LIKE PHILADELPHIA, WHERE STRANGERS ARE ABLE TO LOOK DIRECTLY INTO OUR PRIVATE SPACES. THE HOUSE IS COLOR AS DISCUSSED. JAMESTOWN BLUE IS ANOTHER ISSUE. [00:55:02] MR. TAYLOR, IN HIS STATEMENT AND REQUEST IN DECEMBER OF LAST YEAR, REQUESTED, QUOTE UNQUOTE THAT IT BE A WARM AND RUSTIC EARTH TOWN CHARACTER MEANT TO BLEND INTO THE SURROUNDING HOUSES AS DEFINED BY THE PLANNING BOARD AND THE DECEMBER HEARING AGREED UPON BY THE OWNER. AT THAT TIME, OUR NEIGHBORHOOD IS UNIQUE IN MEDFORD. WE ARE HOME TO THE ONLY REMAINING CENTURY OLD BLOCK CABINS IN THIS TOWNSHIP. MOST HOMES HERE ARE MUTED IN TO REFLECTING BROWN, SANDY COLOR AND OTHER NATURAL SHADES. THIS BRIGHT BLUE STARK BUILDING WITH WHITE TRIM STANDS OUT HARSHLY AGAINST THE NEIGHBORING HOUSES, MORE LIKE A DOUBLE WIDE BEACH HOUSE AND UNDERMINES THE HARMONY OF THE AREA. WE ARE CONCERNED ABOUT HOW AND WHY THIS WAS APPROVED. THIRDLY, GIVEN THAT THE NEW F FOOTPRINT OF THIS HOUSE HAS NEARLY DOUBLE THE SIZE OF THE PREVIOUS HOME, THERE ARE NOW CONCERNS ABOUT THE WATER RUNOFF AT THE BACK OF THE PROPERTY. WE PROVIDED A PHOTO THAT SHOWS POOLING FROM THE REAR DOWNSPOUT. WE WOULD LIKE ASSURANCE THAT THE REAR DRAINAGE IS PROPERLY ADDRESSED SO THAT IT IS DIVERTED TO THE FRONT OF THE PROPERTY AND DOES NOT RISK RUNNING OFF INTO NEIGHBORING PROPERTIES. WE ARE RESPECTFULLY REQUESTING THE TOWNSHIP AND HOME OWNER TAKE THE FOLLOWING STEPS TO REMEDY THE VISUAL IRRIGATION AND PRIVACY CONCERNS. WE WOULD LIKE TO SEE THE INSTALLATION OF A EIGHT FOOT PRIVATE PRIVACY FENCE ON THE SIDE FACING OUR PROPERTY, OR TO COVER THE COST OF UPGRADING OUR EXISTING EIGHT FOOT FENCE. UH, SIX FOOT FENCE. EXCUSE ME, IT'S EIGHT FEET. SO THAT CAN'T BE DONE. ONE THAT WOULD REQUIRE A VARIANCE. AND TWO, THE APPLICATION THAT'S BEFORE THE BOARD IS ONE FOR AN INTERPRETATION OF WHETHER OR NOT THE BLUE IS A WARM EARTH COLOR, EARTH TONE, OR B, CAN THEY GET RELIEF FROM IT? THAT'S THE ONLY QUESTION BEFORE THIS BOARD. NOW, IF THERE'S AN ENFORCEMENT CON CONDITION OR AN ISSUE IN TERMS OF DRAINAGE, UM, THAT WOULD BE A SITUATION THAT YOU SHOULD PRESENT TO THE TOWN COUNCIL. BUT THIS BOARD IS NOT AN ENFORCEMENT AGENCY. YES, THIS BOARD IS THE ZONING BOARD. UM, SO IN TERMS OF IMPOSING ANY, ANY MONETARY REQUIREMENT ON THE APPLICANT, IT'S OUTSIDE OF THIS BOARD'S JURISDICTION. OKAY. ABSOLUTELY. AND UNDERSTOOD. UM, I WILL MOVE ASIDE. I HAVE THE, THE SAME SORT OF, UH, REQUEST FOR LANDSCAPING SCREENING. I UNDERSTAND THAT'S TO BE MOVED ON. UM, I WOULD LIKE CLARITY, AND PERHAPS THIS IS NOT FROM THIS BOARD ON WHY THE COLOR AND THE HEIGHT CONTRADICTED WHAT WAS IN THE ORIGINAL PLANS. UM, AND AGAIN, AT SOME POINT, WHETHER IT BE FROM THE TOWN ENGINEER PROVIDE ASSURANCE THAT THE WATERSHED IS NOT GOING TO BECOME A PROBLEM. UM, RIGHT NOW I'M NOT CONFIDENT, BASED ON WHAT I'M SAYING. UH, WE HAD HOPED TO ADDRESS THESE CONCERNS DIRECTLY BEFORE WITH MR. LEVITON. UH, YOU KNOW, UH, I DON'T THINK HE'S DONE ANYTHING OUT OF VITRIOL OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT. I HAVE NOTHING TO SAY ABOUT THAT, BUT I DID. I CERTAINLY CAME AWAY FROM THOSE CONVERSATIONS NOT FEELING LIKE, UM, WE WERE BEING TAKEN VERY SERIOUSLY. UM, SO THUS BEING HERE TONIGHT, UM, THIS IS NOT THE OWNER'S FIRST PROPERTY, NOR HIS ONLY PROPERTY, NOR WILL IT BE LIVING ON THIS PROPERTY FOR HIM AND IS AN INVESTMENT PROPERTY. AND I COMPLETELY UNDERSTAND THAT THE MOTIVATION TO APPEASE THE NEIGHBORS OF THIS PROPERTY IS NOT VERY STRONG. AND LET ME BE CLEAR, I I SAY THAT UN BEGRUDGINGLY TO HIM. I CAN UNDERSTAND THE POINT OF VIEW, BUT FOR MY WIFE AND I, WHO HOWEVER HAVE BOUGHT THIS HOUSE IN TWO YEARS, WE DID NOT HAVE TO CHOOSE THIS HOME. WE DID NOT HAVE TO LIVE IN, NOR DID WE LIVE IN MEDFORD AT THE TIME WE CHOSE TO MOVE TO MEDFORD. WE CHOSE TWO YEARS AGO TO MOVE TO LAKE PINE AND SPECIFICALLY TO BUY THIS SPECIFIC HOUSE. WE GO TO SLEEP HERE AND RISE HERE EVERY MORNING ON THIS PROPERTY, OUR HOME, OUR HOUSE, OUR NEIGHBORHOOD, OUR COMMUNITY, OR OUR CHOSEN LIFE. WE ARE SPEAKING HERE TONIGHT TO PROTECT WHAT WE HOLD DEAR. WE ARE NOT ASKING FOR SPECIAL TREATMENT ONLY FOR THIS PROJECT TO BE HELD TO THE SAME STANDARDS OF TRANSPARENCY, CONSISTENCY, AND CONSIDERATION THAT ALL RESIDENTS SHOULD BE ABLE TO EXPECT FROM ONE ANOTHER AND FROM THEIR TOWN. PERHAPS THIS CAN BE A PRECEDENT FOR FUTURE BUILDING APPRAISALS, APPROVALS IN MEDFORD AND SPECIFICALLY IN THE LAKE PIONEER. AND I THANK YOU SO MUCH. THANK YOU. THANK YOU. THAT OF COURSE. OKAY, SURE. PLEASE RAISE YOUR RIGHT HAND. DO YOU SWEAR OR AFFIRM TO TELL THE TRUTH, NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH, SO HELP YOU GOD? YES, I DO. PLEASE STATE YOUR NAME AND SPELL YOUR LAST FOR THE RECORD. JOANNE POWELL. P-A-W-E-L-L. AND YOUR ADDRESS, PLEASE? 1 55 20 BOULEVARD. TAKE IT AWAY. GOOD EVENING. AND THANK YOU ALL FOR YOUR SERVICE TO, THAT YOU PROVIDE TO OUR COMMUNITY. TONIGHT HAPPENS [01:00:01] TO BE MY BIRTHDAY, AND WHILE I COULD BE OUT CELEBRATING, I CHOSE TO BE HERE BECAUSE I BELIEVE IT'S EXTREMELY IMPORTANT TO PRESERVE THE CHARACTER OF OUR COMMUNITIES, THE WOODED AND LAKE AREAS OF MEDFORD. THIS IS ONE OF THE MAIN REASONS TO MANY OF US CHOSE TO LIVE HERE. FURTHERMORE, LAKE PINE IS 100 YEARS OLD AND IS MENTIONED AS A HISTORIC SITE IN A PUBLICATION OF THE MEDFORD HISTORIC ADVISORY BOARD. I BELIEVE THAT LAKE PINE IS THE ONLY LAW CABIN NEIGHBORHOOD IN METRO. GRANTED, THERE ARE SOME METRO LAKES, BUT IN THE TOWN OF METRO, I BELIEVE I LIVE ACROSS THE STREET FROM THE NEW HOUSE IN QUESTION. I'M HERE TO EXPRESS MY CONCERN THAT THE BILL DID NOT FOLLOW THROUGH ON A COMMITMENT MADE TO THIS BOARD. AS YOU MAY RECALL FROM A PREVIOUS MEETING, MR. TAYLOR STATED, ESPECIALLY IN LAKE CONNE, WHERE THE PREDOMINANT CHARACTERS LOG CABINETS, STAIN LOCK HOMES, IT'S A VERY WARM AND RUSTIC PART OF THE COMMUNITY. AND WHILE WHITE IS VERY TRENDY AND CURRENT RIGHT NOW, GIVEN THAT THERE ARE VARIANCES FOR EXISTING NONCONFORMITIES, FOR EVERY ZONING PARAMETER, I THINK MOVING AWAY FROM WHITE MAY BE A BE A LITTLE LESS VISUALLY IMPACTFUL. HE WENT ON TO SUGGEST THAT IT MOVE TOWARDS AN EARTH TO TO WHICH MR. ADAMSON, WHICH I BELIEVE MAY BE THE ARCHITECT, RESPONDED, WE HAVE NO PROBLEM COMPLYING WITH AN EARTH TO, HOWEVER, THE HOUSE THAT WAS BILLED IS BLUE WITH BRIGHT WHITE TRIM, BRIGHT WHITE TRIM ON THAT BLOCK. ON OUR BLOCK ALONE, THERE ARE FOUR LOG CABINS, TWO ON EACH SIDE, AND ACROSS THE STREET THERE ARE TWO MORE, ALONG WITH SEVERAL WOOD SIDED HOMES IN THE NATURAL GROUND OR TALL. AND THE NEW HOME THAT WAS ALLUDED TO, WHICH IS GRAY. THE HOUSE THAT WAS DEMOLISHED TO MAKE WAY FOR THIS NEW ONE WAS A SMALL LOG CABIN WITH RUSTIC RAILINGS THAT FIT PERFECTLY WITH THE NEIGHBORHOOD'S CHARACTER. NOW, I ASK YOU TO IMAGINE WHAT THIS STREET WOULD LOOK LIKE IF EVERY HOUSE WERE REPLACED WITH A SIMILAR COLOR, MODERN STYLE HOME LIKE THE ONE THAT WAS BUILT AT 1 54 TALL BOULEVARD. FRANKLY, IT WOULD START TO RESEMBLE A NEW DEVELOPMENT OR PLANNED COMMUNITY, RATHER THAN THE WARM RUSTIC SETTING THAT DEFINES THAT ISN'T THE COMMUNITY WE WORK SO HARD TO PRESERVE, AND IT CERTAINLY ISN'T WHAT ATTRACTS PEOPLE TO LIVE HERE. IT'S ALSO IMPORTANT TO NOTE THAT THE BUILDER IS CONSTRUCTING THIS HOUSE FOR A PROFIT, NOT AS A FUTURE MEMBER OF OUR COMMUNITY. FROM WHAT I UNDERSTAND, THE HOME WILL LIKELY BE SOLD OR USED AS A RENTAL PROPERTY. SO MS. STEWARDS OF THE SPECIAL PLACE, I URGE THE BOARD TO REMEMBER THAT PRESERVING THE COMMUNITY'S CHARACTER INVOLVES MORE THAN ENFORCING SETBACKS FOR BOUNDARY MOVEMENTS. THE VISUAL AND ENVIRONMENTAL HARMONY OF OUR NEIGHBORHOODS IS EQUALLY VITAL. I HOPE YOU ALL CONSIDER THIS BROADER ISSUE FOR FUTURE PROJECTS, ESPECIALLY AS BUILDERS SEEK TO CAPITALIZE ON THE CURRENT HOUSING DEMANDS. IF WE FOCUS ONLY ON TECHNICAL ZONING REQUIREMENTS AND OVERLOOK AESTHETICS AND CHARACTER, WE RISK LOSING THE UNI UNIQUE CHARM OF MEDICAL VERY QUICKLY AND ESPECIALLY REAL TIME. FINALLY, I WANT TO EMPHASIZE A FEW KEY WORDS FOR MR. TAYLOR'S REMARKS BEYOND THE WORD EARTH TONE. THOSE KEY WORDS WERE WARM AND RUSTIC. BLUE MAY, IN SOME AREAS BE CONSIDERED AN EARTH TONE, BUT IT'S COOL, IT'S NOT WARM. THOSE WORDS TRULY CAPTURE WHAT OUR COMMUNITY STANDS FOR AND WHAT WE MUST PROTECT. THANK YOU. THANK YOU. IS THERE ANYONE ELSE THAT WOULD LIKE TO COME SPEAK? SURE. WELL, CAN I JUST, THERE WAS A, A PACKET THAT WAS HANDED OUT, BUT WE JUST . SIR, YOU CAN COME UP TO THE MIC. THANK YOU. PLEASE RAISE YOUR RIGHT HAND. DO YOU SWEAR OR AFFIRM AND TELL THE TRUTH AND NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH TO HELP YOU GOD? I DO. PLEASE STATE YOUR NAME AND SPELL YOUR LAST FOR THE RECORD. GEORGE MU. AND YOU NNNN YOU SAID MUNN. THANK YOU, SIR. AND YOUR ADDRESS? 1 56 TON BOULEVARD. TAKE IT AWAY. OKAY. MY MAIN CONCERN THAT I HAVE IS THE RUNOFF THAT I'M GETTING FROM THE DOWN STRAPS, WASHING DIRT INTO MY, AND I DO HAVE SOME PICTURES THAT, THAT DO SHOW THIS. THAT IS MY BIGGEST CONCERN ALSO WITH THE COLOR NOT MATCHING THE AESTHETICS OF CERTAIN. SO WE CERTAINLY CAN ADMIT THE, UM, THE PHOTO PACKET AS EXHIBIT OH TWO, UM, INTO EVIDENCE. MS. MADAME CHAIR. BUT AGAIN, THE QUESTION BEFORE THE BOARD IS WHETHER OR NOT THE GRANT RELIEF ON THE COLOR, UM, IF THERE IS DRAINAGE ISSUES, UM, THAT IS SOMETHING THAT COULD BE HANDLED DURING RESOLUTION COMPLIANCE BY THE TOWNSHIP AS THE ENFORCEMENT OFFICER NO CO HAS BEEN ISSUED AND ULTIMATELY IT WOULD BE A PRIVATE NEIGHBORHOOD DISPUTE IF THERE'S ANY DAMAGE THAT'S BEING CAUSED. UM, OKAY. BUT YOU CERTAINLY CAN ADMIT IN [01:05:01] EVIDENCE AS EXHIBIT O2. YEAH, I THINK WE JUST WANT TO REITERATE WHERE EVERYBODY CAN GO FOR THOSE TYPES OF, UM, CONCERNS SINCE THE BOARD IS NOT THE APPROPRIATE PLACE. CORRECT. MADAM CHAIR. SO JUST AGAIN TO REITERATE, IF THERE IS, UM, ISSUES BEING ISSUE, ISSUES OCCURRING DURING THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE HOME THAT IS IMPACTING YOUR HOME. IF WATER IS DRAINING, IF IT'S FLOODING, THAT'S AN APPROPRIATE ISSUE FOR THE TOWNSHIP TO REVIEW OR IT THE, DEPENDING ON THE EXTENT OF THE DRAINAGE. IF THE HOUSE WAS CONSTRUCTED IN ACCORDANCE WITH THEIR APPROVED PLANS, THAT WOULD BE A PRIVATE NEIGHBORHOOD DISPUTE. BUT, UM, THE VENUE AND THE APP APPROPRIATE FORUM WOULD BE THE TOWNSHIP ZONING OFFICER. BUT IT IS CERTAINLY SOMETHING THAT THE BOARD CAN CONSIDER. BUT IT, THE QUESTION TODAY BEFORE THE BOARD IS, SHOULD, COULD THIS BE JAMESTOWN BLUE? AND IF NOT, THEN IT HAS TO GO BACK TO BEING RUSTIC AS ORIGINALLY APPROVED. IT DOES NOT MATCH THE SURROUNDING AREAS. THANK YOU. THANK YOU. THANK YOU FOR YOUR COMMENTS. IS THERE ANYONE ELSE THAT WOULD LIKE TO COME UP AND SPEAK? CAN I JUST CLARIFY IF YOU WANNA COME UP HERE? YES. COME BACK UP AND JUST STATE YOUR NAME AGAIN FOR THE RECORD? YES. ROB ROBERT KRAMER, 1 52 TOM BOULEVARD. I JUST WANTED TO SAY THAT WAS SOMEBODY WHO ACTUALLY WORKS IN PLANNING AND ZONING IN TOWNSHIP THAT HAVE TOLD ME THAT I SHOULD MAKE THOSE ADDRESSES ABOUT EIGHT FOOT VARIANCES AND FENCES AND THINGS LIKE THAT AT THIS SPECIFIC MEETING, WHICH IS WHY I HAD DONE THE SAME. NO, ABSOLUTELY. SO THAT THAT'S, THAT'S ALL. I JUST YEAH, JUST PRE I JUST, MADAM CHAIR, I JUST HAVE TO EXPLAIN IT. SURE. IF THIS WAS DURING THE ORIGINAL APPLICATION, THOSE COULD HAVE BEEN CONSIDERATIONS, UM, BECAUSE THAT'S WHEN THE VARIANCES WERE BEING GRANTED HOW TO BUFFER THE, HOW TO BUFFER THE SIZE AND SCOPE AND SCALE OF THE PROJECT. BUT BECAUSE THAT WAS ALREADY APPROVED, THAT TIME IS NOW GONE. SO NOW THE QUESTION IS THIS COLOR, IS THIS COLOR WITHIN THE CONDITION OR SHOULD RELIEF BE GRANTED? OKAY. THANK YOU. THANK YOU. OKAY. CAN I HAVE A MOTION TO CLOSE PUBLIC COMMENT MOTION TO CLOSE THE PUBLIC COMMENTS? SECOND. ALL IN FAVOR? AYE. MS. TAYLOR, DO YOU HAVE ANY ADDITIONAL COMMENTS? NO, I JUST WANNA MAKE SURE THAT WE'RE, I'M CLEAR ON WHAT MR. TAYLOR SAID VERSUS WHAT THE RESOLUTION SAYS AND WARM AND RUSTIC VERSUS EARTH TONE AND, YOU KNOW, I JUST WANNA MAKE SURE THAT CAN, CAN I, BEFORE YOU DO THAT, MR. TAYLOR, CAN I JUST MAKE ONE COMMENT THAT THERE IS AS MUCH WHITE ON THE FRONT OF THIS BUILDING? IS THERE IS JAMESTOWN BLUE, WHICH IS DEFINITELY NOT AN EARTH TOWN COLOR. THAT'S MY CONCERN. AND MR. TAYLOR HAD SPECIFICALLY PREVIOUSLY SPOKEN ABOUT STARK WHITE. RIGHT? RIGHT. UM, SO, UM, HIS, HIS NOTES SAY, WE'LL DO OUR PHONE INSTEAD OF WHITE. UM, I, YOU KNOW, WHEN WE LOOK AT THESE THINGS, WE TRY TO WRITE LETTERS THAT GIVE YOU ALL INPUT INTO WHAT OUR BOTTOM ARE. RIGHT. AND SO THIS IS A, AN UNDERSIZED BLOCK, A SIX UP, 250 SQUARE FOOT LOT. THE HOUSE THAT WAS ON THERE WAS MUCH SMALLER THAN THE HOUSE THAT IS THERE NOW. UM, WITH THE UNDERSTANDING RIGHT, THAT THAT IMPROVEMENT IS, IS CAN BE, CAN FIT IN WITH THE NEIGHBORHOOD MM-HMM . UM, I DON'T RELISH ANYONE HAVING TO SPEND $20,000 ON SIDING. HOWEVER, YOU KNOW, I ALSO DON'T THINK THAT THE BOARD, YOU KNOW, IF I WASN'T COMFORTABLE SAYING, OH, I THINK THAT'S OKAY, I THINK THE BOY'S GONNA BE HAPPY WITH THAT. 'CAUSE I KNOW WHEN YOU ALL DRIVE BY, YOU'RE GONNA GO BUY THAT HOUSE BLUE. 'CAUSE I DIDN'T APPROVE IT AS BLUE BECAUSE OH, MICHELLE SAID IT WAS OKAY. SO I, I KNOW I'M NOT COMFORTABLE DOING THAT. SO, UM, YOU KNOW, WE TRY TO WRITE THESE LETTERS AND, AND TRY TO DO THINGS THAT HELP THINGS FIT BETTER IN THE COMMUNITY THAT THEY'RE IN AS BEST WE CAN, UNDERSTANDING THAT IMPROVEMENTS AND BUILDINGS HAVE TO COME DOWN. SO THIS IS NOT A COMFORTABLE PROBLEM TO HAVE, BUT I DIDN'T DO IT. AND YOU DIDN'T DO IT. I WOULD LIKE TO SAY SOMETHING ELSE. SORRY, I DO APOLOGIZE, BUT PUBLIC COMMENT HAS BEEN CLOSED SO THAT IT MAKES IT D DIFFICULT IF YOU WANT. MM-HMM . I, I UNDERSTAND THAT IT'S DIFFICULT. YEAH, YEAH. IT IS. I IT'S UNFORTUNATE. UM, BUT WE'RE HERE TO NOT OFFER SOLUTIONS. WE'RE HERE TO APPROVE OR DENY WHETHER THIS IS ACCEPTABLE. CORRECT, CORRECT. AND ENTERTAIN ANYTHING THAT [01:10:01] THEY WANT TO. AND, AND SO ARGUABLY, YOU KNOW, COULD THAT, COULD THE HOUSE HAVE BEEN, COULD THE ARCHITECTURE HAVE BEEN MORE, MORE FITTING? YOU KNOW, WE TALKED ABOUT THAT IN OUR LETTER. THEY DIDN'T DO THAT EITHER. UM, YOU KNOW, SO THERE WERE THINGS THAT WE TALKED ABOUT IN THE CORRESPONDENCE THAT I THOUGHT THE BOARD WAS PRETTY, UM, RELAXED ABOUT. FRANKLY, YOU KNOW, YOU, YOU COULD HAVE REQUIRED MORE MM-HMM . THAN YOU DID, AND YOU, YOU DIDN'T, BUT WHAT WE DID REQUIRE WAS CORRECT. YES. I UNDER THAT'S CORRECT. RIGHT. I UNDERSTAND THE POINT THAT YOU'RE MAKING IS WE RELAX ON SOME OTHER THINGS, BUT WHAT WE DID REQUIRE SPECIFICALLY WAS THIS WARM CORRECT. WARM AND RUSTIC. RIGHT. AND, AND WE DIDN'T GET IT CORRECT. OKAY. I, UM, APPRECIATE THE, THE DOUBLE WIDE BEACH HOUSE COMMENT. UM, I I CAN SEE THAT, UH, I, IT, UM, IT DOES KIND OF LOOK LIKE THAT. UM, OKAY. I KNOW SOMEBODY ELSE WANTED TO SPEAK AND I KNOW THAT WE CLOSED PUBLIC COMMENT. UM, YOU'RE THE BOSS, MADAM CHAIR. YEAH, I CAN I MAKE A MOTION THAT WE OPEN PUBLIC COMMENT FOR ONE MORE TIME? THANK, THANK YOU. I WANT EVERYBODY THAT'S HERE TO SPEAK, TO BE ABLE TO SAY WHAT THEY WANNA SAY. SO CAN, UM, ALL IN FAVOR, AYE. AYE. OKAY. YOU CAN COME UP AND DO I, I SWEAR YOU IN. DO YOU SWEAR OR AFFIRM TO TELL THE TRUTH, NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH TO HELP YOU? GOD? I DO. PLEASE STATE YOUR NAME AND SPELL YOUR LAST FOR THE RECORD. NICKOL ANO. SAVA. IAO. GOT IT. SO I'VE HEARD, UM, COUNSEL, HIS COUNSEL GIVE THE EXPLANATION THAT HE MADE A MISTAKE AND, YOU KNOW, IT WAS A EIGHT MONTHS SINCE THAT MEETING. HOWEVER, I DID HAVE A PERSONAL CONVERSATION WITH MIKE AND, UH, AND ACTUALLY GEORGE HUNT WAS THERE AS WELL. AND A VERY BIG ISSUE FOR US WAS THE COLOR OF THE HOUSE. AND WE ASKED HIM, YOU KNOW, SINCE IT DOES NEED TO BE OR A WARM WORK TONE, WHAT COLOR ARE YOU GOING TO CHOOSE? HE STUMBLED AROUND, SAID HE DIDN'T KNOW THAT WAS IN JULY. I'M SAYING THAT UNDER OATH. SO THIS ACKNOWLEDGEMENT THAT HE MADE A MISTAKE, IT WAS EIGHT MONTHS LATER. IT IS JUST FALSE. THAT'S ALL. THANK YOU. THANK YOU. OKAY. ANYONE ELSE? SEE NONE. MOTION TO CLOSE. MOTION TO CLOSE IN PUBLIC CONTACT. ALL IN FAVOR? AYE. OKAY. IS THERE ANY, ANY ADDITIONAL, YEAH, IF I CAN JUST MAKE A FEW, UH, BRIEF COMMENTS SURE. TO RESPOND TO A FEW OF THE MEMBERS OF THE PUBLIC, UM, AS WELL AS JUST SOME CLOSING COMMENTS. SO JUST TO RESPOND TO, UM, THE, THE, THE MOST RECENT MEMBER OF THE PUBLIC THAT SPOKE. I MEAN, I, I DON'T THINK THAT WHAT SHE SAID INDICATES THAT MR. MR. LEVITON'S STATEMENT THAT, YOU KNOW, HE, HE MADE A MISTAKE AND THAT HE WAS, YOU KNOW, HE, HE, YOU KNOW, ESSENTIALLY FORGOTTEN EIGHT MONTHS AFTER THE APPROVAL THAT THE HOME HAD TO BE A NATURAL OR TONE COLOR, UH, YOU KNOW, DECIDING WENT UP IN JULY. UM, AND, AND JUST GENERALLY SPEAKING, I DON'T THINK THAT WHAT SHE STATED NECESSARILY MEANS THAT, THAT, THAT, YOU KNOW, MR. LEVITON'S STATEMENTS WERE FALSE. YOU KNOW, HE, HE GENUINELY, IT SOUNDS LIKE HE GENUINELY DIDN'T KNOW WHAT COLOR HE WAS GONNA MAKE THE HOME. AND THAT INDICATES TO ME THAT, YOU KNOW, HE, HE PROBABLY HAD FORGOTTEN ABOUT WHAT YOU KNOW ABOUT THIS CONDITION THAT HE HAD, HE HAD AGREED TO BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, HE, HE JUST NOT KNOWING WHAT COLOR YOU'RE GOING TO MAKE, DECIDING ESSENTIALLY MEANS THAT, YOU KNOW, IN HIS MIND, HE COULD MAKE IT ANY COLOR, WHICH MEANS TO ME THAT, YOU KNOW, HE, HE PROBABLY HAD FORGOTTEN. AND, AND OUR, OUR ASSERTION IS THAT HE HAD FORGOTTEN THAT THIS, THAT THIS WAS A CONDITION OF APPROVAL THAT HE HAD AGREED TO. UM, AGAIN, IN DECEMBER OF LAST YEAR, UM, YOU KNOW, I I HAD HEARD MEMBERS OF THE PUBLIC STATE THAT THIS IS A LACK OF COMMITMENT TO THE APPROVALS THAT HE AGREED TO. AGAIN, THAT'S, YOU KNOW, WE, WE DON'T SEE THAT TO BE THE CASE. UM, EIGHT MONTHS HAD PASSED AND I THINK THE BOARD KNOWS THAT. AND, YOU KNOW, IT, IT WAS AN HONEST MISTAKE. MR. LEVITON TESTIFIED UNDER OATH THAT IT WAS A MISTAKE. UM, YOU KNOW, THE PROPERTY THAT THERE WERE SOME COMMENTS ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT HE'S COMPLIED WITH THE OTHER CONDITIONS OF APPROVAL, WITH THE APPROVALS THAT HE, THAT HE RECEIVED. THE PROPERTY HAS BEEN INSPECTED AND, UM, HAS BEEN DETERMINED BY THE CODE ENFORCEMENT AGENCY IN THIS, IN THIS, UH, IN THIS BOROUGH, IN THIS, IN THIS TOWNSHIP, THAT, UM, THE PROPERTY IS IN COMPLIANCE WITH THE APPROVALS THAT HE OBTAINED. UM, AND, AND AGAIN, YOU KNOW, UH, IT, IT WAS AN HONEST MISTAKE BY MR. LEVITON. UM, IT, IT REALLY IS GOING TO BE COSTLY TO HAVE TO, YOU KNOW, INSTALL NEW SIDING OR PAID THE HOUSE. I THINK HE TESTIFIED THAT IT'S SOMEWHERE BETWEEN THIRD 20 AND $30,000. BUT JUST TO BE PERFECTLY CLEAR, THE COST OF SOMETHING IS IRRELEVANT FOR THE BOARD'S DETERMINATION. CORRECT. COUNSEL, I, I, I I THINK IT'S SOMETHING TO CONSIDER WHERE IN THE MUNICIPAL LAND USE LAW, DOES IT PERMIT THE COST AS A CONSIDERATION? IT DOESN'T. SO JUST TO BE CLEAR, I DON'T KNOW. IT'S, IT IS A, IT IS A SYMPATHETIC POSITION. YES. BUT IT'S PUTTING US IN AN UNCOMFORTABLE POSITION AS THE BOARD. CORRECT. BUT I DON'T, I JUST WANNA BE PERFECTLY CLEAR WITH THAT. I UNDERSTAND. THANK YOU. YEAH, I, I'D ALSO JUST REFER, YOU KNOW, I I I'VE HEARD MEMBERS OF THE PUBLIC STATE THAT IT DOESN'T FIT IN WITH THE NEIGHBORHOOD. YOU KNOW, THE HOME DIRECTLY ACROSS THE STREET IS, IS [01:15:01] NOT, IS A COLOR. THAT'S NOT TOO MUCH DIFFERENT THAN, THAN THE COLOR THAT, THAT YOU SEE, UM, AT 1 54 TOTON. DO YOU REALLY THINK THAT THOUGH, LIKE, I I MEAN IT'S LOOKING AT IT, IT'S A DARKER GRAY COLOR AND, AND WHAT WE HAVE HERE IS, YOU KNOW, HE'S NOT, HE'S ONLY CAN ARGUE HE CAN'T PROVIDE TESTIMONY. I KNOW. I'M SORRY, I YEAH, . BUT, BUT I DOES YOUR CLIENT, IS THAT HIS TESTIMONY THAT HE THINKS THAT THE GRAY HOUSE ACROSS THE STREET IS WELL, WELL, TO THE EXTENT THAT COMPARABLE THAT THIS HOME DOESN'T FIT WITHIN THE NEIGHBORHOOD, YOU KNOW, I, I, YOU KNOW, OUR, OUR ASSERTION IS, YOU KNOW, NEITHER DOES THAT HOME. UM, AND, AND YOU KNOW, I I DON'T THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, IF IF NEITHER OF THEM FIT WITHIN THE NEIGHBORHOOD, UM, THEN YOU KNOW THAT THE CHARACTER OF THE NEIGHBORHOOD HAS CHANGED. WHICH, YOU KNOW, THERE, THERE WAS NO INTENT TO CHANGE THE CHARACTER OF THE NEIGHBORHOOD. WE PROVIDED PHOTOS OF AT LEAST FIVE OTHER PROPERTIES THAT ARE, UM, THAT ARE BLUE COLOR. UM, AND, YOU KNOW, WE, WE'D ASK THE BOARD TO CONSIDER, UM, TO CONSIDER ALL OF THAT. UM, YOU KNOW, WE THINK THAT, THAT THE, THE BLUE COLOR THAT HE'S CHOSEN IS A NEUTRAL COLOR. UM, WE DON'T, WE REALLY DON'T THINK THAT IT STANDS OUT. UM, YOU KNOW, CONSIDERING THE, THE OTHER BLUE HOMES IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD, I THINK, YOU KNOW, IT WOULD SURFACE THIS BOARD WELL TO, TO, TO NOT JUST CONSIDER THE, THE TWO OR THREE OR FOUR HOMES DIRECTLY, UM, ADJACENT OR, OR IN, IN DIRECT, UM, YOU KNOW, WITH AN EYE, AN EYE SHOT OF, OF THIS, OF THIS HOME. UM, AND, AND WE'D ASK THE BOARD TO, TO TAKE THAT UNDER CONSIDERATION WHEN VOTING. THAT'S ALL I HAVE. THANK YOU. THANK YOU. CONCERN ASKED WHITE CHANGE THAT TO, OKAY. IT'S NOT, IT'S JUST MY OPINION. NO, WHAT MY OPINION. JUST ONE FINAL COMMENT. THERE WAS ALSO A, A MEMBER OF THE PUBLIC WHO HAD, UM, MADE A COMMENT ABOUT THE, THE WHITE TRIM OF THE HOME, OR MAYBE IT WAS, UH, I DEFINITELY DID, I DEFINITELY DID THAT, THAT HAD MADE A COMMENT, YOU KNOW, THE APPLICANT IS WILLING TO, UM, TO, TO CHANGE THE, THE COLOR OF THE WHITE TRIM TO, UM, YOU KNOW, AN, AN EARTH TONE COLOR OR A WARMER RUSTIC COLOR. IF THE BOARD WOULD, UH, WOULD, WOULD, WOULD, WOULDN'T, YOU KNOW, ALLOW THAT INSTEAD OF, UM, YOU KNOW, HAVING, YOU KNOW, UH, INSTEAD OF MAKING, THE APPLICANT ESSENTIALLY HAS TO CHANGE THE SIDE TO, YOU KNOW, A COLOR THAT WOULD BE CONSISTENT WITH THE, UH, THE, THE APPROVAL THAT HE RECEIVED. SO IF THE BOARD WOULD BE WILLING TO, TO ALLOW HIM TO, TO, YOU KNOW, TO, TO BETTER COMPLY WITH THE CONDITION, HE WOULD BE WILLING TO CHANGE, UM, THE WHITE COLOR, THE WHITE TRIM OF THE HOME, UM, TO, TO MAKE IT BETTER, TO COMPLY AS BEST AS POSSIBLE. , WHAT ARE YOUR COMMENTS? DO YOU HAVE ANY, ANY, YOU'RE STILL GONNA HAVE THE WHITE RAILINGS AND IT'S GONNA BE JUST AS BAD. MS. TAYLOR, HAVE YOU HEARD OF THIS PROPOSAL BEFORE? THIS MOMENT? NO. OKAY. DO YOU HAVE ANY COMMENTS? I MEAN, YOU KNOW, I, I LOOK AT THOSE PICTURES AND I, YOU KNOW, THE WHOLE POINT OF HAVING THESE MEETINGS IS TO TALK ABOUT CHARACTER, TALK ABOUT TIME, TALK ABOUT THE VILLAGE, TALK ABOUT IT IN OTHER NEIGHBORHOODS. UM, AND I, I APPRECIATE THE, THE PROBLEM. UM, AND I, I GUESS YOU COULD PAINT IT OFF WHITE AND IT MIGHT HELP IT A LITTLE BIT. I, I DON'T KNOW. I MEAN, I DON'T LOVE THE HOUSE AND I DON'T THINK BLUE OR THE WHITE HELPS TO PARTICULARLY FIT IN. UM, I DON'T, I DON'T KNOW IF PAINTING IN A A, A COLOR OF BROWN WILL HELP. IT'S, I DUNNO. YEAH. IT'S KIND, IT'S KIND OF HARD TO IMAGINE WHAT THAT WOULD LOOK LIKE AND WHETHER THAT WOULD IMPROVE THE APPEARANCE. OKAY. ANY BOARD MEMBERS HAVE ANY COMMENTS OR QUESTIONS? I APPRECIATE EVERYONE'S INVOLVEMENT. AND IF NOT, THEN I'LL TAKE A MOTION IF, UH, NO ONE FROM THE BOARD HAS ANY ADDITIONAL COMMENTS OR QUESTIONS. IT WAS A, IT WAS A PERFECT BRING TONE FOR THE QUIET . SO IT COULDN'T HAVE BEEN BETTER. IT REALLY COULDN'T HAVE BEEN BETTER TIMING. I CAN'T MAKE A MOTION. I, [01:20:01] THE MOTION JUST HAS TO GO. SO WE'VE GOT THREE OPTIONS. LET TABLE AND ADAM SHARE. YOU CAN EITHER A, MAKE A MOTION TO INTERPRET THAT THIS IS A WARM EARTH COLOR, EARTH TONE COLOR, WHICH I THINK IS NOBODY WANTS TO DO. RIGHT. SO THEN ONE OPTION IS TO EITHER SOMEBODY CAN JUST MAKE THE MOTION TO APPROVE RELIEF AND TO PERMIT THE JAMESTOWN COLOR. AND THEN YOU CAN HAVE A YES NO VOTE, OR JUST DENY THE JAMESTOWN COLOR. UM, JUST 'CAUSE YOU MAKE THE MOTION TO APPROVE AND THEN YOU DON'T VOTE IN FAVOR, DOESN'T REALLY MEAN ANYTHING AT THE END OF THE DAY. 'CAUSE WE JUST NEED THE MOTION TO BE FRAMED, PUT ON THE TABLE, AND THEN WE WILL DETERMINE WHETHER OR NOT THERE'S GONNA BE AN AFFIRMATIVE. SO, OR DENIAL. IT'S, YEAH, I THINK IT'S MORE THAN JUST THE JAMESTOWN AT THIS POINT. OR YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT THE WHITE AS WELL. SO I MEAN MM-HMM . IN MY OPINION, IT'S DEF THE WHITE'S DEFINITELY NOT A NATURAL EARTH TERM. OKAY. SO THEN IF THAT'S THE CASE, THERE COULD BE A MOTION TO DENY THE APPLICATION AND RIGHT. REQUIRE THE APPLICANT TO COMPLY WITH THE ORIGINAL CONDITION AS OPPOSED. RIGHT. I JUST WANNA MAKE SURE THAT THE MOTION THAT'S PUT ON THE TABLE IS THE CORRECT ONE, BECAUSE WE HAVE MADE THE MISTAKE, YOU KNOW, THE CONFUSION HAS OCCURRED ON THIS BOARD BEFORE. CORRECT. UH, WITH, YOU KNOW, MOTIONS TO APPROVE AND THEN DENIED. DENIED AND RIGHT. AND THEN DENIED. SO I JUST WANNA MAKE SURE THAT, UM, THE BOARD MEMBERS UNDERSTAND THAT AND THAT WE ARE ON THE SAME PAGE WHEN WE, UH, VOTE THAT WE UNDERSTAND WHAT WE'RE VOTING FOR. I HAVE A QUESTION. DO YOU AGREE, PATRICK? I JUST NEED YOU TO SPEAK A LITTLE LOUDER 'CAUSE I CAN'T HEAR YOU. I HAVE A QUESTION FOR YOU. SO IF I'M LOOKING AT HERE ON EXHIBIT A TWO, THIS IS THE ACTUAL RESOLUTION. CORRECT. SO I WASN'T AT THE FIRST MEETING AND I DIDN'T WATCH THE FIRST MEETING. I CAN'T, BUT IN IT'S SHOWING HERE THAT IT'S, IT JUST SAYS NATURAL PRO TONE IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE RECOMMENDATIONS OF THE BOARD'S PROFESSIONALS. NOW, THE RECOMMENDATIONS FROM THE BOARD PROFESSIONALS AS IMPOSED ON THE, IN THE TESTIMONY WAS THAT IT BE THE RUSTIC WARM EARTH TONE. AND THEN IN THE REVIEW LETTER ITSELF, WHEN YOU GO TO THE NOW, THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED PORTION, IF THE VERY FIRST CONDITION SHALL COMPLY WITH ALL THE CONDITIONS SET FORTH IN THE SET FORTH IN MS. TAYLOR'S REVIEW LETTER, ONE OF THOSE CONDITIONS IS SET IN ON PAGE FOUR. ON A FOUR, WHICH IS ME, ME, ME OR A THREE? I BELIEVE IT'S A FOUR HIGHLIGHTED. YEAH, IT SAYS IT'S HIGHLIGHTED. BASICALLY THE INTENT WAS THAT IT WOULD BE COMPLIMENTARY WITH THE EXISTING NEIGHBORHOOD. SO THAT WAS REALLY WHERE THE CONDITION WAS FORMULATED FROM. BUT IT, THE ULTIMATE COLOR WAS SUPPOSED TO BE IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE RECOMMENDATIONS OF THE BOARD PROFESSIONAL, WHICH IT WAS NOT DONE. OKAY. WE JUST NEED A MOTION TO APPROVE THE RELIEF OR DENY THE RELIEF, AND THEN WE CAN DEAL WITH THE ROLL CALL AND HOW THE RESPONSES SHOULD BE, OR, OR THE MOTION COULD BE TO, TO APPROVE THE APPLICATION WITH, WITH THE CONDITION THAT THE, THE WHITE TRIM BE, UM, PAINTED OR REPAINTED, UH, A WARM NATURAL EARTH TONE OR A RUSTED COLOR AS WELL. IF, UM, IF THE BOARD WOULD AGREE TO, TO THAT DESIGNATION OF APPROVAL, THE APPLICANT WOULD BE WILLING TO DO THAT. IT'S UP TO THE BOARD. YEAH. BUT LIKE IN HIS DEFENSE, WE'RE NOT DESIGNING IT IF THAT'S WHAT SOMETHING HE'S OFFERING AT THIS POINT. CORRECT. CORRECT. THAT HELP A MOTION. OKAY. WERE YOU GONNA SAY SOMETHING? I THOUGHT I HEARD YOU. I'M LOOKING, I I CAN DO A MOTION. SURE. CERTAIN, YEAH, YOU CAN DO A MOTION. MOTION TO DENY. IS THERE A SECOND? I'LL SECOND THAT. SO IF YOU VOTE YES. IN FAVOR OF THE MOTION, YOU'RE VOTING TO DENY THE APPLICATION IF YOU VOTE NO, YOU'RE VA WE'RE, WE'LL HAVE TO DEAL WITH THAT THEN. THANK YOU. ROLL CALL. ROLL CALL. . I JUST WANNA MAKE SURE. THANK YOU MR. MARSON. AYE. MS. ATIL? AYE. MR. ZORO? AYE. MR. HACKETT? AYE. VICE CHAIRMAN RICKERS AYE. FOR DENY MADAM CHAIR HUM. AYE. APPLICATION [01:25:01] DENIED. THANK YOU. THANKS EVERYONE FOR YOUR TIME. I APPRECIATE IT. GOOD LUCK. YEAH. WE'RE GONNA TAKE A, A SHORT RECESS BEFORE THE NEXT APPLICATION. OKAY. WITH THAT FIVE MINUTES. FIVE MINUTES. FIVE MINUTES. FIVE MINUTES. FIVE MINUTES. FIVE TO EIGHT 10. YOU HAVE A MOTION TO MOTION TO TAKE A FIVE MINUTE BREAK. ALL IN FAVOR? AYE. AYE. AYE. AYE. OKAY. SORRY. THANK YOU. OKAY, WE'RE BACK. UM, LEMME JUST, WE'RE ON THE RECORD. FINE. I GOTTA FIND MY AGENDA REALLY QUICK. THANK YOU. OKAY. NEXT APPLICATION. JOSEPH WHITAKER AND DEBORAH WOOD. EIGHT HARTFORD ROAD BLOCK 9 0 8, LOT ONE AND 2 0 1 AND BLOCK 9 0 6 0 1 LOT 16 SEEKING A USE VARIANCE TO PERMIT THE OPERATION OF AN 18 HOLE GOLF DISCOURSE IN THE GMS ZONING DISTRICT. UH, YES, YOU'RE CORRECT. BOARD MEMBERS, MY MY NAME IS CHRIS NORMAN. I'M FROM THE PLATT LAW GROUP ON BEHALF OF THE APPLICANT, UH, BRANDON WHIR AND, UH, DEPARTMENT LAW AND DEPUTY BROUGHT A LARGE CONTINGENCY THIS EVENING. UM, THE APPLICANT SEEKING APPROVAL FOR OPERATION OF AN 18 HOLE, THIS GOLF COURSE ON THEIR 15 ACRE RESIDENTIAL PROPERTY AT EIGHT HARFORD ROAD IN THE GMS SOUTH ZONE. WE RECOGNIZE THERE'S A USE VARIANCE DISCOURSE IS THIS GOLF COURSES ARE NOT A PERMITTED USE IN ANY ZONING DISTRICT IN NEW JERSEY ON PRINCE SIR. GENERALLY LOCATED ON MUNICIPAL OWNED PROPERTY, UH, GREEN ACRES, ACRES PROPERTY. THERE'S TWO COURSES IN SOUTH JERSEY THAT I, I I PLAY. I I AM A DIS WELL PLAYER. I'M REPRESENTING MY CLIENT PRO BONO BECAUSE I, I BELIEVE IN THE SPORT. I THINK IT'S A GOOD THING, POSITIVE RECREATION. THE TWO COURSES ARE IN WINSLOW TOWNSHIP AND TOWNSHIP. THE STAFFORD WOODS COURSE, WHICH IS THE NUMBER ONE COURSE, RATED COURSE IN NEW JERSEY. UM, THERE ARE, UH, 84 DISC GOLF COURSES IN NEW JERSEY. ACCORDING TO NEW, NEW, IT'S THE, THE WEBSITE THAT THAT INVOLVES THIS 42 OF 'EM HAVE 18 HOLES. SO IT'S, IT'S AN UP AND COMING USE. RIGHT NOW THERE'S A THOUSAND COURSES IN THE UNITED STATES AND IN 2024 THERE WERE A HUNDRED, UH, NEW COURSES JUST IN THE LAST YEAR. SO IT'S RISING IN POPULARITY. I I THINK IT'S A LITTLE SLOW IN NEW JERSEY, BUT MAYBE IT'S BECAUSE NEW JERSEY'S RUNNING OUT OF AVAILABLE LAND, HALF THE HORSES, WHICH, WHICH MAKES IT, UH, MORE OF A PREMIUM. UM, MY CLIENT'S PROPERTY AT EIGHT HART ROAD IS TWO PROPERTIES DOWN FROM THE UNITED METHODIST CHURCH AT THE CORNER OF, OF HARTFORD AND ALION ROAD. AND NEXT TO THE CHURCH IS THE BEAT'S. AND THEN THE WHITAKER'S PROPERTY, WHICH IS 15 ACRES. UM, UH, IT, THE, THE WHITAKER'S HOUSE IS DEVELOPED. IT'S 15 ACRES. THERE'S A SINGLE FAMILY HOME. IT HAS A LONG DRIVEWAY, REALLY A SHARED DRIVEWAY ENTRANCE WITH THE BBS AND IT, IT LOOPS AROUND THE FRONT OF THE HOUSE AND, AND, AND, AND GOES AROUND THE BACK OF THE HOUSE. THE BBS DRIVEWAY IS ALSO A LOOP DRIVEWAY, SO THERE'S PLENTY OF OPPORTUNITY FOR PARKING. AND IN ADDITION TO THAT, WE'RE, WHAT WE'RE LOOKING TO DO, THERE'S, THERE'S TWO USES. THE BASE USE IS JUST THE OPERATION OF THE DISCOURSE AS A USE VARIANCE PER SE, FOR, FOR JUST REGULAR ACTIVITY, UH, ON A WEEKDAY OR OVER OR A WEEKEND. AND, AND ON A WEEK, ON A WEEKDAY, MAYBE THERE'S ONE OR TWO GROUPS THAT MAY PLAY ON ANY GIVEN DAY AND MAYBE 10 TO 20 DISC GOLFERS MAY, UH, A FREQUENT THE DISC GOLF COURSE ON A, ON, ON A, ON A WEEKEND DAY. MM-HMM . UH, WE'RE ALSO LOOKING FOR APPROVAL FOR FOUR TOURNAMENTS PER YEAR. AND, AND WE AGREED TO THIS RESTRICTION 'CAUSE WE UNDERSTAND THE GMS ZONE IS THE RESIDENTIAL ZONE, AND WE DON'T WANT THE IMPACTS TO BECOME A, A, A FREQUENT HEADACHE FOR THE NEARBY RESIDENTS. UM, THIS WOULD BE OPERATED AS A NON-PROFIT HOBBY. AND WHAT I MEAN BY THAT IS, IS MR. WHITAKER AND HE'LL PROVIDE TESTIMONY. THIS IS HIS PASSION. HE LIKES TO PLAY. I LIKE TO PLAY I, THE STAFFORD COURSE IS FIVE MINUTES FROM MY OFFICE. A LOT OF TIMES I GO OVER THERE AFTER FIVE O'CLOCK. IT'S JUST A RECREATIONAL ACTIVITY. IT'S A HOBBY, IT'S A HOBBY SPORT AND IT'S A GREAT HOBBY SPORT. 'CAUSE UNLIKE A REGULAR OR GOLF COURSE WHERE IT'S $50 TO PLAY NINE HOLES OR A HUNDRED DOLLARS TO PLAY 18 HOLES, YOU KNOW WHAT DISC GOLF COSTS [01:30:01] $20 FOR A DISC. THERE'S, THERE'S THE DRIVER, THERE'S THE, UH, SORT OF LIKE THE IRON MIDDLE DISTANCE ONE, AND THEN THERE'S THE PUTTER. THIS IS WHAT THE DISC CAR, THEY'RE DIFFERENT THAN THE DISC YOU THROW AT THE BEACH. THEY'RE NOT THE THE LIGHT ONES. THESE, THESE ARE A LITTLE HEAVIER. THEY'RE EASIER TO CONTROL. AND BELIEVE IT OR NOT, THE MORE YOU PLAY THE SPORT, THE, THE, THE, UH, ENJOY IT MORE 'CAUSE YOU GET BETTER AT IT. UM, AMONG OTHER DEFENSE, UM, THE, UH, DISC GOLF COURSE IS NOT PERMITTED USE IN THE ZONE. UM, THE, UH, THE GOLF COURSE WOULD OPERATE SORT OF AKIN TO LIKE A, A SMALL PUBLIC CLUB, WHICH IS ONE OF THE USES IN FOR QUASI PUBLIC USES IN THE GMS ZONE. ALTHOUGH WE'RE ASKING FOR THE USE VARIANCE, WE'RE NOT SAYING IT'S WASTE THAT, UM, THIS COURSE WOULD HAVE 18 HOLES. PLAY IS NEARLY IDENTICAL TO REGULAR GOLF WITH EACH PLAYER STARTS AT A TEE BOX AND YOU THROW THE DISC, THE HOLES ARE ANYWHERE FROM A HUNDRED TO 400 FEET IN LENGTH. THEY BURIED JUST LIKE IN A REGULAR GOLF COURSE AND YOU THROW THE DISC AND WHERE IT LANDS, THAT'S WHERE YOUR NEXT SHOT IS. YOU PICK UP THE DISC, YOU DON'T MOVE FROM THE SPOT, YOU THROW THE DISC, YOU THROW IT AT A BASKET. THAT'S HOW ABOUT BEFORE HE SPEAKS, WE'RE GONNA SWEAR. YEAH. WE'LL, WHY DON'T WE SWEAR HIM IN RIGHT AWAY. DO YOU SWEAR OR AFFIRM TELL THE TRUTH, NOTHING BUT THE TRUTHS TO HELP YOU? GOD, YES. PLEASE STATE YOUR NAME AND SPELL YOUR LAST FOR THE RECORD. JOSEPH WHITAKER. W-H-I-T-A-K-R. NOW I'LL TAKE IT AWAY. OKAY. HALF TIME BASKETS ARE ABOUT FIVE. OKAY. UM, IT HAS CHANGED IF YOU, WE JUST NEED YOU SPEAKING TO THE MICROPHONE. YEAH. IT, IT, WHEN, WHEN YOU THROW THE DISC, THE, THE BASKET IS DESIGNED TO CATCH THE DISC, AND WHEN YOU GET IT IN THE, THE HOLE, YOUR HOLE IS OVER. SO YOU HAVE, YOU HAVE BIRDIES, YOU HAVE CARS, YOU HAVE BOGEY, JUST LIKE REGULAR CAR. UM, SO AS I INDICATED, WE'RE, WE'RE, WE'RE LOOKING TO, TO, TO, I THINK THE REAL IMPETUS FOR THIS APPLICATION IS, IS THE COURSES ALREADY BEEN CITED ON THE PROPERTY AND IT'S BEEN THERE, IT'S BEEN THERE I, I THINK FOR ABOUT A YEAR OR TWO. AND IT'S ALWAYS BEEN USED PRIVATELY. THERE'S NEVER BEEN ANY PUBLIC EVENTS. NOW, THE, UH, BRANDON HAD THE IDEA THAT HE'D LIKE TO HAVE A COUPLE TOURNAMENTS A YEAR, AND THE TOURNAMENTS ARE STRICTLY INTENDED TO BE SMALL IN SCALE. THERE'S 18 HOLES. THE THE LIMITATIONS WE'RE PROPOSING IS, UH, NO MORE THAN THREE DISC GOLFERS PER HOLE, WHICH IS 50 54 GOLFERS FOR A TOURNAMENT. NOW, THE, THE PLAY TAKE TAKES ABOUT AN HOUR AND A HALF TO TWO HOURS TO PLAY A ROUND OF DISC GOLF. ANOTHER BENEFIT, IT DOESN'T TAKE AS LONG TO PLAY A REGULAR GOLF. UH, THE, THE DISC GOLFERS WOULD, UH, ESSENTIALLY ON, ON A TOURNAMENT DAY, WE, WE ESTIMATE THAT MAYBE YOU MIGHT HAVE TWO, TWO VEHICLES FOR, FOR EACH HOLE BECAUSE A LOT OF THE DISC GOLFERS CARPOOL TO THE EVENTS, THEIR FRIENDS AND, AND WHATNOT. SO WE, WE ANTICIPATE THAT, UH, THERE'S A PARKING NEED FOR A TOURNAMENT OF APPROXIMATELY 36 SPACES. WE, WE HAVE, UH, ON, ON THE WHITAKER PROPERTY ROOM TO ACCOMMODATE ABOUT 20 VEHICLES, INCLUDING AN 80 DA CAR PAID PARKING SPACE TO PROVIDE. UM, ANOTHER 50 SPACES COULD BE PARKED ON THE BB PROPERTY, WHICH IS A LONG, LONG LOOP OF CIRCULAR DRIVEWAY. AND THEN EVEN THE UNITED METHODIST CHURCH, THERE'S A, A GRAVEL PARKING LOT AREA ON THE SIDE THAT'S CLOSEST TO THE WHITAKER'S PROPERTY. UH, WE HAVE A PERMISSION LETTER FOR 20 SPACES. SO WE BASICALLY HAVE PARKING FOR 90 VEHICLES. ALTHOUGH THE INTENTION IS, IS, IS JUST, IT'S JUST GONNA BE FOR, FOR THE NEED FOR ABOUT 30, 36 BASE. I DON'T ANTICIPATE ANY SPECTATORS COMING TO THE EVENTS BECAUSE IT'S, IT'S REALLY THE GOLFERS DISC GOLFERS, THEY PLAY PLAY, THEY PLAY WITH THEIR FRIENDS. THEY, THEY DON'T BRING THEIR FAMILY. THEY DON'T BRING THEIR FAMILY. UM, AND WITH THAT, I, I, UH, WOULD LIKE TO HAVE BRANDON SWORN IN. I'LL ASK HIM SOME QUESTIONS AND DID, FIRST OFF, HE'S, UH, CREATED A NON-PROFIT CORPORATION FOR THE OPERATION OF THIS, UM, UH, ENTERPRISE. IT'S NOT EVEN AN ENTERPRISE. IT'S A HOBBY. IT'S A HOBBY. SO BRANDON, DID WE COME UP? [01:35:01] OKAY. WHEN, WHEN DID YOU MOVE TO EAT HARTFORD ROAD? THE END OF 2021. OKAY. HOW BIG IS YOUR PROPERTY? 15 ACRES. OKAY. IS YOUR PROPERTY IS SUFFICIENT, IS THE SIZE FOR A DISC GOLF FORCE? YES. OKAY. AND HOW LONG HAVE YOU BEEN PLAYING DISC GOLF? UH, SINCE THE YEAR 2000. OKAY. AND ARE YOU CONSIDERED A GOOD PLAYER? I CONSIDER MYSELF. OKAY. HE, HE'S NASH, HE'S A NATIONALLY RANKED PLAYER IN DISC GOLF WORLD. AND, UH, ACTUALLY I WOULD LIKE TO PLAY WITH THE BASIC TIPS. UM, WHEN, WHEN, WHEN DID YOU START PLAYING AND HOW OFTEN DO YOU PLAY? I FIRST PLAYED IN 2000 AND I USUALLY PLAYED THREE TO FOUR TIMES. OKAY. AND IS THIS A HOBBY SPORT? YES. IS IT A HOBBY FOR YOU? YES. OKAY. HOW, HOW WOULD YOU DESCRIBE THE AVERAGE DISC GOLF PLAYER? UH, KIND, CONSIDERATE, RESPECTFUL. OKAY. UH, WHAT GOT YOU STARTED PLAYING THIS SPORT? I LIKED THROWING FRISBEES AND GIVES YOU A TARGET TO THROW AT INSTEAD OF CATCHING SOMETHING. OKAY. AND HOW LONG ARE THE DISC GOLF POLES FOR YOUR COURSE? REST OF THEM ARE AROUND 200 FEET. OKAY. AND YOU THROW OFF A KEY BOX? YES. TURF. TURF, ARTIFICIAL TURF. IT'S NOT A PERMANENT SURFACE? YES. OKAY. AND HOW FAR COULD YOU THROW AT THIS? CLOSE TO 400 FEET? BELIEVE. OKAY. AND AS WE'VE ALREADY INDICATED THAT THIS BASKETS ARE FOUR TO FIVE FEET HEIGHT, HOW LONG DOES IT TAKE TO PLAY AROUND THIS? ABOUT AN HOUR AND A HALF, TWO HOURS. OKAY. AND YOU PUT, IS THIS ALL YOU NEED REALLY? YES. SOME FORCES YOU MIGHT, MIGHT EVEN NEED A DRIVER IF IT'S SHORT . OKAY. UH, AND THE NEWEST DIS DISC GOLF COURSES THERE ARE MORE EAST IN WINSLOW? YES. THEY'RE LITTLE OVER 15 TO 20 MINUTES DRIVE. OKAY. UH, AND, AND DOES FREEDOM PARK HAVE FOUR DISC GOLF BALLS? THEY HAVE FOUR BASKETS, BUT WHOEVER DESIGNED IT DIDN'T PLAY DISC GOLF BECAUSE THE BASKETS ARE IN THE WALKING PATH TO THE GOLF PARK. SO FREEDOM PARK WOULD JUST BE WHEREVER BEGINNER WOULD GO TO SEE IF THEY WANT TO TRY THIS. GOLF. THERE'S NOT, YOU'RE NOT GONNA TREES. IT'S ALL OPEN. SO USUALLY YOU HAVE, FOR A GOOD DISC GOLF COURSE, YOU WANT HAVE TREES. YOU DON'T WANT IT TO JUST BE A LIVE THESE DAYS. OKAY. IS DISC GOLF A MORE AFFORDABLE RECREATIONAL HOBBY THAT OTHER SPORTS? YES. JUST HAVE THE BOTTOM. OKAY. AND IS IT POPULAR WITH THE YOUNGER PEOPLE IF THEY KNOW ABOUT IT? A LOT OF PEOPLE DON'T EVEN KNOW ABOUT IT. DO YOU SEE GUYS MY AGE PLAYING TOO ? YEAH. ALL AGES. OKAY. ANYBODY CAN PLAY AS LONG AS YOU LIKE TO THROW FOR. OKAY. YOU'RE REQUESTING A USE VARIANCE FOR THIS APPLICATION, CORRECT? YES. OKAY. UM, IS YOUR COURSE CONSIDERED A LARGE COURSE? NO. OKAY. UH, CAN YOU GIVE SOME CONTEXT ON THAT? YES. MOST COURSES ARE IN PARKS THAT HAVE LOTS OF ROOM. I, I ONLY HAVE A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF SPACE, SO I MADE IT CONDENSED TO FIT IN THE LAND THAT WE HAVE. THE WIND, THE WINDLOW FORCE HAVE TO PLAY SOME SIX HOLES. YES. OVER 700 FEET. THE LONGEST HOLE ON OUR COURSE IS 330 FEET. OKAY. BUT THERE'S STILL A CHALLENGE IN PLAYING ON THE SHORTER COURSE, DID NOT. YES, BECAUSE THERE'S TREES THAT YOU, YOU HIT A TREE, THEN YOUR SHOT'S NOT GONNA BE AS RESPECTED JUST LIKE IN REGULAR GOLF. YEAH. OKAY. UH, AND ON YOUR COURSE, IS THERE ANY RISK OF A DISC GOLFER THROWING THE DISC ONTO HARPER ROAD? I'VE NEVER SEEN ANYBODY THROW. OKAY. AND TOS AREN'T, AREN'T THE PLAYERS TEND TO BE MORE EXPERIENCED. THEY'RE NOT JUST THROWING THEIR THING. THOSE PEOPLE THAT PLAY TOURNAMENTS HAVE PLAYED BEFORE AND HAVE SOME SORT OF EXPERIENCE. OKAY. UM, HOW, HOW MANY TOURNAMENT TOURNAMENTS ARE YOU PROPOSING IN A YEAR? FOUR. AND, AND WOULD YOU AGREE TO RESTRICTION THEY'D ONLY BE ON SATURDAYS AND MONDAY BECAUSE BASICALLY THE CHURCH SAID THEY HAVE THEIR SERVICES ON SUNDAY. WE DON'T WANNA HAVE A PARKING. I OH, UH, THE TOURNAMENTS, WERE YOU RESTRICTED TO EITHER A SATURDAY OR A MONDAY ON A THREE DAY WEEKEND, LIKE A HOLIDAY AND YOU, YOU WOULD AGREE TO RESTRICT THE NUMBER OF OF GOLFERS [01:40:01] AND A TOURNAMENT? IT'S 54 ON THE 18 HOLES? YES. AND THAT'S THREE GOLFERS PER GOAL? YES. AND EVERYONE PLAYS AT THE SAME TIME, DO THEY NOT? YES. AND EVERY THAT KEEPS THE, THE, THE, THE PLAY, THE COURSE OF PLAY MOVES STEADY AND QUICKLY WHEN YOU DO IT THAT WAY, CORRECT? YES. OKAY. AND HOW, HOW MANY CARS DO YOU THINK ARE GONNA BE ASSOCIATED WITH THE, WITH THE THREESOME IN EACH HOLE? UH, ABOUT 30 SOME CARS. OH, 35 TO 40 MAYBE. OKAY. AND DO YOUR, WHEN, WHEN YOUR FRIENDS COME OVER, DO THEY CARPOOL? A LOT OF TIMES THEY'RE FRIENDS. USUALLY THEY LIVE CLOSE TO EACH OTHER. OKAY. UM, AND HOW MANY, HOW MANY CARS DO PARK ON YOUR PROPERTY? ABOUT 20. OKAY. AND WOULD YOU AGREE TO PROVIDE A, A, A PAVE A DA PARKING SPACE AS NEEDED? YEAH. OKAY. WE HAVE, WE HAVE PAVEMENT THAT WE COULD SPRAY PAINT ON. WELL, IT HAVE TO BE A DA COMPLIANT, UH, THAT, UM, AND, AND FOR A BATHROOM ARE, ARE YOU PROPOSING A FORAGE ON, ON THE BACKSIDE OF YOUR HOUSE? YES. FOR TI JUST FOR THE TOURNAMENTS. RIGHT. AND, AND ESSENTIALLY THE HORSES OVER IN R DON'T THEY HAVE FORD JOHN'S IN THE PARKING LOT THERE? YES. SO THIS, THIS IS NOT OUT OF THE ORDINARY. IT'S OKAY. AND YOU HAVE A SHARED DRIVEWAY ENTRANCE WITH THE BE ON HARPER ROAD? YES. BUT THERE'S A SEPARATE DRIVEWAY. IT, IT PORTS, IT PORTS OFF TO THE RIGHT, CORRECT. YES. OKAY. AND YOU'RE FRIENDLY WITH THE BBS? YES. AND HOW YOU'VE KNOWN THEM SINCE YOU SINCE WE MOVED IN. AND DO THEY HAVE ANY ISSUE WITH, WITH YOU USING THEIR DRIVEWAY FOR PARKING? NO, THEY'VE GIVEN US THE PERMISSION THERE. OKAY. UH, NOW HOW, HOW WOULD THE GOLFERS, IF THEY PARKED AT UNITED METHOD PROPERTY, WHICH IS TWO PROPERTIES OVER, HOW ARE THEY GONNA GET TO YOUR PROPERTY WITHOUT GOING ON HARFORD ROAD? THERE'S A WALKING PATH. OKAY. WOULD YOU, WOULD YOU AGREE TO PUT SIGNAGE UP ON TOURNAMENT DAYS TO DIRECT THAT? YES. WOULD YOU AGREE TO HAVE SOMEONE WORK AS A, A SUPERVISED PARKING SO THAT PEOPLE DON'T GET LOST AND THEN GO ON TO HARFORD ROAD? YES. OKAY. UM, AND WOULD YOU AGREE ON ANY TOURNAMENT THAT THE SIGNUP WOULD BE LIMITED TO? 36 JUST GOLF PLAYERS? WASN'T IT 54 OR, UH, I, I'M SORRY. YEAH, 54. THAT'S THAT, THAT'S THREE WOULD 36 IS THE NUMBER OF VEHICLES. UM, OKAY. UM, AND DO WILL THE DIS GOLFERS, WILL THEY BRING DESKS FOR SPECTATORS? NO. OKAY. UM, WOULD, WOULD, UH, UH, WOULD YOU WORK WITH THE TOWNSHIP ENGINEER ON DIRECTIONAL SIGNAGE FOR THE TO? YES. AND YOU'LL TAKE THE SIGNAGE DOWN IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TOURNAMENT'S OVER? YES. OKAY. UH, WILL YOU MAINTAIN INSURANCE ON YOUR PROPERTY FOR THE BALL WARNING? YES. OKAY. IS THIS A, IS YOU, HAVE YOU CREATED A NON-PROFIT ENTITY FOR THIS OPERATION? ASSUMING IT GETS APPROVED? YES. OKAY. AND DO YOU MAKE ANY MONEY OFF OF THE DIS OPERATION OF, ON YOUR PROPERTY? NO. IT'S ALL, WHATEVER IS BROUGHT IN, GO BACK INTO THE COURSE. AND YOU, YOU WOULD CHARGE A FIVE, $5 FEE FOR THE ENTRY FEE. DOESN'T THAT JUST HELP YOU RE RECOUP YOUR COST? YEAH, PAID FOR THE, FOR JOB. ON THE SIGNS OF WHAT? DI MINI WOULD YOU CALL THIS A NET LOSS FOR YOU? THE OPERATION OF THIS GOLF COURSE? TOO MUCH. IT'S, IT'S MORE FOR MY ENJOYMENT. IT'S FOR THE LOVE OF THE GAME. UM, AND, AND YOU WOULDN'T AGREE TO ALL THESE RESTRICTIONS IN A RESOLUTION APPROVAL, WHICH WOULD BE BINDING ON IT? YES. OKAY. UM, WILL THERE BE ANY FOOD SERVICE OR ALCOHOL AT A THIS POINT? NO. WILL THERE BE ANY TOURNAMENT PLAY AT NIGHT SO THAT, UH, OR ANY ISSUE WITH NIGHT PLAYING ON THE COURSE? NO TOURNAMENT AT NIGHT. OKAY. [01:45:03] WILL THE GOLF, HIS GOLF PLAYERS BE ABLE TO PLAY ON, ON TOURNAMENT DAYS? YES. AND HOW YOU, YOU'VE HAD THIS COURSE THERE FOR ABOUT TWO YEARS? YEAH, ABOUT THREE YEARS NOW. OKAY. AND HOW, HOW, HOW, HOW MANY PEOPLE FREQUENTLY DID THIS COURSE? UM, SOME DAYS THERE'S NOBODY, SOME DAYS THERE'S TWO PEOPLE. SOME DAYS IT MIGHT BE SIX. OKAY. SO IT'S NOT ON THE WEEKENDS. SOMETIMES YOU GET 10 TO 12 PEOPLE. OKAY. OKAY. DO YOU, DO YOU NEED TO MAKE ANY SITE IMPROVEMENTS TO YOUR PROPERTY TO ACCOMMODATE THE ISSUES OF THE ADA A CLAIM? NO. OKAY. UM, HAVE, HAVE YOU ALIGNED THIS COURSE SO THAT YOU WOULD NOT INTRUDE ON WETLANDS? YES. OKAY. IS THERE ONE HOLE, I BELIEVE IT'S HOLE FOUR, THAT YOU WOULD THROW IT FROM THE TEE BOX OVER THE WETLAND AREA. WOULD YOU AGREE TO A RESTRICTION PUT SIGNAGE THAT THEY, THAT THIS GOLFERS COULD NOT WALK THROUGH THE WETLANDS AREA? YES. AND THAT, THAT'S THE ONLY HOLE AFFECTED BY ANY WIND FENCE AT ALL, CORRECT? YES. AND YOU, YOU HAVE A PORTION OF THE REFOCUS CREEK ON THE SIDE OF YOUR PROPERTY OF APPROXIMATELY 2.25 ACRES, BUT THAT'S NOT WHERE THE DIS COURSE IS, CORRECT? NO, THE CREEK IS FURTHER OVER, NOT IN PLACE. THAT'S, THAT'S ALL SWAMPY. IT'S NOT REALLY USABLE FOR THAT ANYHOW. YEAH. OKAY. UM, WILL IT BE ANY TRASH OR LITTER AFTER A TOURNAMENT? NO. I CLEAN UP ALL THE TRASH. OKAY. AND THIS IS YOUR HOME, SO YOU'RE NOT GONNA, YOU'RE NOT GONNA WANT ANY TRASH LEFT ON YOUR PROPERTY ANYHOW. AND I PICK UP LOTS OF LIT. OKAY. UM, HOW WILL YOU DEAL WITH THE TRASH ON THE TOILET DAY? PUT THE TRASH RECEPTACLE? YES. WE HAVE THE TRASH CANS OUT. IF YOU PUT THE TRASH ON, YOU PUT 'EM NEAR YOUR HOUSE. NEAR YOUR HOUSE, KIND OF CENTRALLY LOCATED OR WITH THE HOLES? YES. SO YOU COULD PUT MAYBE ONE TRASH RECEPTACLE IN THE FRONT AND ONE IN THE BACK SO THAT IF THERE IS ANY TRASH, THERE'S CONVENIENT LOCATION TO PLACE IT? YES. OKAY. IS THERE ANY THREAT TO WILDLIFE FROM A DISCAL PLANT? NO. OKAY. AND IS THE DI THE DISCAL COURSE IN RIE TOWNSHIP, ISN'T THAT ON GREEN ACRES PROPERTY? IT HAD TO BE APPROVED BY THE DPP? YES. OKAY, SIR. SO THE DEP DOES NOT VIEW THIS GOLF COURSE AS A THREAT TO WILDLIFE AND, UM, AND DO YOU HAVE A SEPARATE EGRESS ON HARTFORD ROAD FROM THE ENTRANCE TO YOUR DRIVEWAY? YES. SO THERE, THERE'S A WAY FOR, TO EXIT WITHOUT QUANTUM CONFLICT REQUIRE COMING IN. WHAT IF THERE WAS IN CLEMENT WEATHER, LIKE A, A, A BAD THUNDERSTORM OR WHAT, WHAT WOULD YOU DO? DETERMIN RESCHEDULE. OKAY. AND YOU WOULDN'T GIVE NOTICE TO THE TOWNSHIP OF THE, THE DATES ORDINANCE AND ANY CHANGES THERE TO, WOULD THE DISC GOLF COURSE BE DISRUPTIVE OR A NUISANCE TO NEIGHBORING PROPERTY OWNERS? NO. OKAY. IT IT, AREN'T THEY JUST THERE TO ENJOY THIS WORK, SPEND TIME WITH THEIR FRIENDS? YES. OKAY. HAVE YOU EVER HAD ANY INCIDENTS WITH ANY NEIGHBORS SINCE YOU, YOU'VE HAD THE DISC GOLF COURSE HAVE ONE NEIGHBOR CALLED TOWNSHIP TO SAY THAT WE WERE BUYING A COMMERCIAL BUSINESS. AND IT'S NOT A BUSINESS? NO, IT'S NOT A COMMERCIAL BUSINESS. STRICTLY ABOUT RECREATIONAL. OKAY. UH, WOULD THE DISC GOLF COURSE PROMOTE RECREATIONAL ACTIVITIES FOR THE, FOR MEMBER TOWNSHIP RESIDENTS? YES. UM, AND DOES IT DRIVE, SHORTEN THE DRIVE TIME FOR SOMEONE WHO, WHO WANTS A CONVENIENCE TO PLAY SOMEWHERE? YES, CONSIDERABLY. WILL THE DISCOURSE HAVE ANY NEGATIVE IMPACTS ON YOUR HARTFORD ROAD NEIGHBORHOOD? NO. WHAT ABOUT THE GMS ZONING DISTRICT? I BELIEVE. OKAY. UH, AND, AND THAT'S ESSENTIALLY IT. NOW AS, AS FAR AS FAR AS THE [01:50:01] PROOFS, AS I INDICATED WITH THE USE, WITH THE USE VARIANCE, THERE IS NO ZONING FOR DISCAL COURSES IN NEW JERSEY. SO IT WAS NOT, I DON'T BELIEVE IT WAS INTENTIONAL THAT THE COUNCIL INTENDED TO EXCLUDE THIS USE FROM BEDFORD TOWNSHIP. IN FACT, THE TOWNSHIP LAST BY, BY ORDINANCE, THAT THIS PROPOSED USE WAS THE IMPETUS FOR THE COUNCIL ADOPTING ORDINANCES 2025 DASH NINE, CREATING A, A A A, A SPECIAL APPROVAL PROCESS FOR PRIVATE COMMERCIAL SPECIAL EVENTS. THIS, I DON'T THINK THAT WAS A ORDINANCE. THERE WAS A RESOLUTION THAT WAS ADOPTED? NO, IT WAS AN ORDINANCE. I DON'T BELIEVE THE OP THEY ADOPT. THEY ACTUALLY ADOPTED IT. YES. ADOPTED. THEY NEVER ADOPTED IT. I THOUGHT IT WAS ADOPTED. NO, IT WAS NOT. IT'S NOT ADOPTED. OKAY. I, I KNOW IT WAS INTRODUCED. I JUST INTRODUCED, UM, WELL, SE EE ESSENTIALLY WE BELIEVE IT ADVANCES THE PURPOSES OF ZONING, UH, PROMOTES ACTIVE REC, RECREATIONAL OPEN SPACE, AN OPPORTUNITY TO USE YOUR OPEN SPACE. UM, IN, IN THE TOWNSHIP IN IT, IT, IT, IT, IT'S CONVENIENT. AMENITY THE PROPERTY IS PARTICULARLY SUITABLE FOR, FOR MS B COURSE IS 15 ACRES. IT FITS 18 HOLES. THERE'S ONLY ONE MINOR CONFLICT IN THE WETLANDS AREA, WHICH WE THINK WE CAN WORK WITH MR. GOLD'S OFFICE TO ADDRESS THE SIGNAGE, APPROPRIATE SIGNAGE TO AVOID ANY ISSUES. AND, UH, WE'VE AGREED TO ALL THE RESTRICTIONS. THIS IS NOT, I THINK THE BIGGEST CONCERN THAT THE NEIGHBORS HAVE IS, IS THAT THIS IS GONNA TURN INTO A BUSINESS, A CREEPING BUSINESS THAT'S GOING TO EXPANDS LIKE A LANDSCAPING BUSINESS. WE START SMALL AND THEN IT GROWS BIGGER OR BIGGER. THAT'S IF, IF THE BOARD IMPOSES CONDITIONS OF APPROVAL IN THE RESOLUTION, THE APPLICANT'S BOUND BY 'EM. NOW, IF THE APPLICANT, LET'S SAY THE VAULT TO IS A SUCCESS, MS. NORMAN, YOU JUST KEEP YOUR COMMENTS DIRECTED AT THE CHAIR AND THE BOARD, NOT THE PUBLIC. I, I'M JUST TRYING TO I UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU'RE DOING, BUT YEAH, JUST KEEP IT DIRECTED AT THE BOARD. I, I MEAN, WHAT, WHAT WE'RE SAYING IS, IS IF IF THERE EVER WAS ANY INTENTION TO EXPAND, WE WOULD NEED TO COME BACK BEFORE THIS BOARD TO SEEK AN AMENDED APPROVAL BEFORE WE COULD EVEN CONSIDER THAT. AND, UH, AGAIN, YOU, YOU INTEND TO BE A GOOD NEIGHBOR OR, OR FOR YOUR NEIGHBORS WHO LIVE IN THE SURROUNDING RESIDENTIAL AREA. WE HELP OUR NEIGHBORS CLEAN UP. THAT'S, THAT'S ALL I HAVE, SO, OKAY. THANK YOU. UM, OKAY, BEFORE I LOSE THIS TRAIN OF THOUGHT, IF YOU'RE COLLECTING MONEY, REGARDLESS OF WHAT IT'S FOR, REGARDLESS OF WHERE THE MONEY IS GOING, TO ME THAT INDICATES THERE'S A TRANSACTION AND FIVE, $5 IS LIKE A DOLLAR FOR A DEED. GIFTING IT TO YOUR, I DON'T THINK IT MATTERS HOW MUCH IT IS. I THINK THERE'S AN EXCHANGE OF MONEY REGARDLESS OF WHERE, HOW MUCH THE MONEY IS OR WHERE THE MONEY IS GOING. WOULD YOU AGREE TO COLLECT THE $5 DOESN'T AMOUNT TO ANYTHING. WOULD YOU AGREE TO WAIVE ANY FEE? YES. SO THAT GOES AWAY. THAT, THAT'S JUST MY, MY, IN MY UNDERSTANDING IS THERE IS A, IT, IT LOOKS TO BE AS IF THERE IS A BUSINESS PURPOSE OR A COMMERCIAL USE OCCURRING BECAUSE THERE IS SOME EXCHANGE OF MONEY REGARDLESS OF WHERE IT'S GOING OR HOW MUCH IT IS AT THE END OF THE DAY. IT COULD BE A, THERE, A 5 0 1 3 C DOESN'T MEAN IT'S NOT A BUSINESS. OKAY. I MEAN, THINK ABOUT ALL THE 5 0 1 3 C CHARITABLE ORGANIZATIONS. THEY'RE BUSINESSES. YEAH. RED CROSS, IT'S A 5 0 1 3 C. IT'S NONPROFIT, IT'S A BUSINESS. THEY SERVE A PURPOSE. SO IT'S TO THE REPRESENTATIONS THAT IT'S NOT A INCOME DRIVEN BUSINESS, I WOULD AGREE. BUT IT'S, AT THE END OF THE DAY, WHETHER IT'S A 5 0 1 3 C NONPROFIT VERSUS A PROFIT, THEY'RE STILL CONSIDERED BUSINESSES FOR FORMATION PURPOSES. BECAUSE I'M SURE YOU HAD TO CREATE AN, AN ENTITY REGISTER WITH THE STATE OF NEW JERSEY YES. HAS AN EIN NUMBER. YES, WE HAVE ALL THAT. YEP. ENTER THAT INTO THE RECORD IF YOU WANT. I'M JUST SAYING LIKE, JUST FOR PURPOSES OF MADAME'S CHAIR'S COMMENT AT THE END OF THE DAY WHY IT'S NOT AN INCOME DRIVEN BUSINESS, ALLEVIATE THE CONCERN OF, OF THE BOARD AND THE RESIDENTS BEHIND ME. WE'LL ELIMINATE THE $5 FEE. IT WILL, THERE WILL BE NO FEE CHARGE FOR PEOPLE TO PLAY. THIS IS HIS PASSION. SO THIS IS NOT A MONEY MAKING ENTERPRISE. IT'S NOT, CAN I ASK A QUESTION ABOUT THIS? MM-HMM . SO ONLINE, WHEN THERE ARE TOURNAMENT EVENTS, THERE'S LIKE A BUY, IT'S LIKE POP, AND THEN THERE'S A PRO PERSON WHO WINS. SO ARE YOU SAYING THAT YOU WON'T DO THAT EITHER? TOURNAMENT'S GOTTA HAVE YEAH, I'M, I'M JUST, I'M [01:55:01] JUST TRYING YEAH, I WOULD UNDERSTAND THAT TOO. LIKE WE'RE TRYING TO, LIKE HOW DOES THE ZONE OFFICER ENFORCE A, WHETHER THEY COLLECT MONEY OR NOT, HOW DO THEY IMPOSE A PRIZE, A WAGER OR ALL THAT? LIKE THEY, CANDIDLY, YOU CAN'T, YOU CAN'T, YOU CAN'T. AND THEY CAN'T EVEN, THIS BOARD CAN'T EVEN IMPOSE THE CONDITION. SORRY. EXACTLY. SO MY POINT IS SIMPLY THAT LIKE HOW WOULD WE EVEN DEAL WITH THAT? YOU CAN'T, IT'S, IT'S UNENFORCEABLE AND IT'S, EVEN IF THE CONDITION WAS IMPOSED THAT THE APPLICANT COULDN'T COLLECT ANY MONEY AS A RESULT OF THE USE, IT WOULDN'T BE ENFORCEABLE. IT WOULD BE LIKE THE FIRE TRUCK CASE WHERE YEAH. YEAH. AT THE END OF THE DAY. BUT IT IS A, IT'S A BUSINESS. IT'S JUST A NON-INCOME DRIVEN AT ALL. MOST OF THE TOURNAMENTS, THE AMATEUR PLAYERS, WHEN THEY SIGN UP, THEY DON'T GET ANY PRIDE WHEN THEY GET A DISC. AND THAT'S WHAT THEY'RE PAYING FOR. THEY GET DISC AND THE PLAY, IT'S A BREAKEVEN THING. BUT THIS COST, THE DISC COST ABOUT 20 BUCKS. IS IT A, A BRING YOUR OWN DISC? I, A LOT OF YOU BRING YOUR OWN DISC, BUT WHEN YOU'RE AN AMATEUR AND YOU SIGN UP FOR AN EVENT, YOU DON'T GET PAID. YOU GET A DISC. YEAH. I JUST WAS CURIOUS LIKE WHEN PEOPLE COME, DO THEY BRING THEIR OWN EQUIPMENT? YEAH. YEAH. OR DO YOU HAVE IT HAS THEIR OWN DISC. GOTCHA. UNLESS THEY'RE, I, BECAUSE PEOPLE LIKE TO USE THEIR OWN DISCS. OKAY. DO ANY OF THE BOARD MEMBERS OF PLAY OR HAVE THEY PLAYED? NO. NOPE. YOU HAVE HAD MY OWN BAG ABOUT 20 DISC. WHAT IS THE PURPOSE OF THE 5 0 1 3 C? IT'S ALREADY BEEN APPROVED THROUGH THE, THROUGH THE, UH, IT'S A NON-PROFIT. I I THINK IT'S GONNA HELP PROCURE INSURANCE. SO YOU'RE SAYING IT HA YOU'RE SAYING THAT YOU HAVEN'T PUT IN THE APPLICATION FOR THE 5 0 1 3 C YET? NO. OH NO. WE HAVE A, WE, WE HAVE A CERTIFICATE OF CORPORATION FORMATION. WE GOT EIN NUMBER, WE HAVE ALL SO THAT, SO I'M ASKING YEAH, FOR THAT 5 0 1 3 C, WHAT IS THE PURPOSE OF THE NONPROFIT DEDICATED TO THE PRESERVATION, MAINTENANCE AND CONSERVATION OF THE WHITAKER WOODS DISC GOLF COURSE AND WALKING TRAIL IN THE PURSUIT OF OUTDOOR LEISURE, ATHLETIC AND RECREATIONAL ACTIVITIES AND THAT CULTURAL EDUCATIONAL AND OPPORTUNITIES REMAIN ACCESSIBLE TO THE RESIDENCE OF BEDFORD NEW. THAT'S THE BUSINESS PURPOSE WE WANT. THIS WAS FILED ON NOVEMBER 5TH, 2025. SO YOU'LL HAVE TO, THIS IS A COPY. WELL, WE'LL MARK IT AS EXHIBIT A ONE JUST FOR THE RECORD. YES. SO AN SO ANNUALLY YOU'LL HAVE TO REPORT TO THE IRS. THANK YOU. THE FINANCIAL REPORT FOR THAT 5 0 1 3 CI JUST WANT TO JUST SKIP CONTROL AND BRING US BACK BECAUSE WHETHER THE 5 0 1 3 C OPERATES AS A TRUE, TRULY VALID 5 0 1 3 C OR IF IT'S AN INCOME DRIVEN BUSINESS IS REALLY RELEVANT FOR PURPOSES OF THE LAND USE EVALUATION FOR THIS USE VARIANCE. MM-HMM . UM, IF IT MAKES A PROFIT, GREAT. IF IT DOESN'T MAKE A PROFIT, GREAT. UM, IT REALLY, I JUST DON'T WANNA GET INTO THE WEEDS OF TAXES. WHAT THEY'RE GONNA, ARE THEY TRULY GONNA MEET AND SATISFY THEIR PURPOSE AS A NON-PROFIT? 5 0 1 3 C? UM, 'CAUSE IT'S REALLY OUTSIDE OF THE ANALYSIS. BEFORE THE BOARD, MY, MY QUESTION WAS CONCERNING THE CHAIRWOMAN S UH, UH, QUESTION ABOUT THE, UH, FEE, THE POSSIBLE FEE. SO THAT'S WHY I HAD THAT QUESTION ABOUT THE 5 0 1 3 C, BUT I THINK YOU'VE, YOU'VE ANSWERED THAT. YES. OKAY. , ARE THERE TWO SEPARATE REQUESTS? IS IT THE JUST WEEKDAY WEEKEND LIKE PLAY IS ONE REQUEST AND THEN THE HAVING THE TOURNAMENTS IS A SEPARATE REQUEST? WE CAN BREAK IT UP THAT WAY. OKAY. WHEN YOU STARTED, THAT'S, YEAH. WHAT YOU MADE IT SOUND LIKE, UM, THAT THERE, YOU KNOW, THERE WAS LIKE TWO SEPARATE YEAH. WE, WE DON'T WANT THE TOURNAMENT TO BE THE TAIL WAGGING THE DOG ON HAVING TO TAKE THE WHOLE THING DOWN. MM-HMM . BUT WE BELIEVE, WE BELIEVE, I, I I, I, I DEAL WITH . I TRIED TO COME UP WITH CONDITIONS TO SHOW YOU AS, AS, AS THE BOARD, BUT THIS IS VERY CONTROLLABLE RECREATIONAL ACTIVITY. IT, IT CAN WORK. I, I THINK SOMETIMES WE GET CAUGHT UP IN MINUTIA OF, OF THINGS AND IS THIS THING REALLY GOING TO, TO MOVE THE NEEDLE AND BED HURT AS FAR AS CAUSING LAND USE? INAX? I, I JUST DON'T SEE IT. THIS IS, THIS IS NOT LIKE SOMEONE POSTS THE, THE THING, THE BAND, THE BAND'S GONNA COME AT PLAY FROM 9:00 PM IN THE LOUD MUSIC TILL FOUR IN THE MORNING. THAT'S NOT WHAT THIS IS. MAKE SURE I SAW THAT. I KNOW. WELL, SPEAKING OF BANDS, I MEAN, I'M SITTING NEXT TO TWO BOARD MEMBERS THAT, YOU KNOW, GOOGLED THE LOCATION AND IMMEDIATELY THERE [02:00:01] WERE PICTURES UP OF LIVE MUSIC BANDS, LARGE, UH, BONFIRES. SO PERHAPS THERE IS CONCERN, YOU KNOW, THAT'S WHERE THE CONCERNS ARE. OKAY. I DON'T KNOW. I MEAN, I HAVE, OBVIOUSLY WE HAVE PEOPLE HERE THAT ARE, ARE GOING TO SPEAK, BUT, UM, THAT'S FINE. WE, WE CAN ASSURE YOU IF YOU GRANT THE APPROVAL OF THAT FROM THAT MM-HMM . UM, OKAY. I HAVE, I DID WRITE DOWN SOME THINGS, BUT, SO I DIDN'T, I DON'T THINK WE COVERED, UH, HOURS. YOU MENTIONED DAYS, BUT, AND I THINK YOU MENTIONED MAYBE THAT NOTHING'S GONNA OCCUR AFTER DARK. LIKE YOU'RE NOT GONNA PLAY AFTER DARK. THERE WOULD BE NO TOURNAMENTS AFTER DARK. RIGHT? I WOULD THINK THAT THAT WOULD BE DIFFICULT TO DO. UM, DOES THAT MEAN EVERYBODY LEAVES IT DARK DARKLY? HAVE YOU PLAYED AT NIGHT PREVIOUSLY? YEAH, YOU CAN PLAY AT NIGHT, BUT THERE WOULDN'T BE ANY BIG EVENTS AT NIGHT. OKAY. IT WOULD BE DONE BEFORE . SO INTERFERE. ANYBODY? I THINK WHAT THE MADAM CHAIR IS ASKING IS WHAT ARE THE HOURS OF OPERATION FOR THE PROPOSED DISCOURSE DIS GOLF OPERATION FOR THE SITE, RIGHT? CORRECT. MADAM CHAIR? MM-HMM . THANK YOU. OKAY. UH, MOST PEOPLE PLAY BETWEEN NINE AND SIX. OKAY. SO YOUR HOURS OF OPERATION ARE NINE TO SIX. I'M JUST TRYING TO, I WOULD THINK IS IN SUMMERTIME, PROBABLY DAWN DUST. I'M SORRY, WHO GIVE TESTIMONY? WE'RE SAYING PROBABLY ONTO TO DUST, BUT IF YOU GO ONLINE, THERE'S, THERE'S GLOW STICKS IN THE BASKETS, SO CLEARLY IT'S NOT DUST. SO LET'S JUST BE CLEAR AND HONEST ABOUT WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT. WHETHER IT'S REGULAR PLAY OR EVENTS. WHEN ARE THEY, HOW OFTEN ARE THEY, WHEN ARE WE DOING? SO I, I HAVE PLAYED AT NIGHT AND WE LIGHT UP THE BASKETS AT NIGHT. WHEN THE DAYTIME GETS, WHEN IT GETS DARK AT FIVE AND IT GIVE PEOPLE A CHANCE TO PLAY, YOU CAN FINISH THE ROUND PRETTY MUCH. YEAH. THE BASKETS CAN BE LIT UP TO PLAY AT NIGHT, BUT IT'S NOT A, THERE'S NO NIGHT TOURNAMENTS. ARE YOU GOING TO BE PLAYING AT NIGHT? I'M JUST, I AM TRYING TO UNDERSTAND, JUST FOR THE RECORD, IF WE CAN HAVE SOME SORT OF HOURS OF OPERATION. SO I, I DO PLAY AT NIGHT, BUT IT'S NOT, THERE'S NO BIG CROWDS OR TOURNAMENTS. HOW MANY PEOPLE WOULD BE IN A NIGHT? USUALLY A, USUALLY ON A NIGHT. MAYBE 10 TO 15 PEOPLE. YEAH. I MEAN, TO ME THAT'S A LOT OF, THAT SOUNDS LIKE A LOT OF PEOPLE, WHICH GOES BACK TO JUST THE HOURS OF OPERATION. LET'S JUST BE, WELL THAT'S WHERE THAT, WHERE YOU, YOU CAN DEPOSE REASONABLE CONDITIONS OF APPROVAL THAT IF THERE ARE CONCERNS WITH THAT ADDRESS THAT REASONABLY OKAY. I MEAN, WE'RE ASKING FOR APPROVAL SO WE, WE HAVE TO ACCEPT SOME RESTRICTIONS. OKAY. YEAH, I'LL JUST MAKE A NOTE OF IT AND WE'LL JUST NEED TO START FROM SOMEWHERE THOUGH. WE'LL GET . WE CAN MOVE ON. I UNDERSTAND WHAT, LIKE IF YOU'RE BOOKING A TEA TIME, SIX 30 IS THE FIRST TEA TIME. ADAM CHAIR 6 32. SO LIKE, IS THERE LIKE A, DO YOU WANT TO, DO YOU WANT TO, UH, IS THERE LIKE SOME WAY JUST TO NARROW WHEN THE LAST ANTICIPATED START TIME FOR SOMEBODY THAT'S WANTS TO PLAY THERE AS A RECREATIONAL HOBBY VERSUS THE FIRST AVAILABLE TEE TIME? 'CAUSE IT'S IN A RE RESIDENTIAL ZONE AND MADAM CHAIR, JUST, JUST A THOUGHT. UM, YOU DON'T WANT PEOPLE DRIVING AROUND AT THERE AT THREE O'CLOCK IN THE MORNING RIGHT. AND STARTING A GAME. SO JUST REALLY, THAT'S KIND OF WHERE THEY'RE AT. CAN YOU, CAN YOU AGREE TO A RESTRICTION THAT IN SUMMERTIME WHEN IT GETS DARK AT 8, 8 30, YOU CAN AGREE TO LIKE EIGHT O'CLOCK? WE DO PLAY AT NIGHT SOMETIMES. SO WELL WHAT CERTAINLY THE 20 MINUTES ARE THE 20 O'CLOCK, I MEAN, AND THEN IT BRINGS UP, YOU KNOW, IF YOU HAVE, YOU DON'T HAVE ENOUGH PARKING SPACES AND PEOPLE ARE GOING TO THESE LIKE OVERFLOW LOCATIONS AND THEN NIGHT, THE 20 MINUTES ARE STRICTLY A DAYTIME ACTIVITY. THERE'S PLENTY OF PARKING. OKAY. SO THEN WHAT ARE THE HOURS OF OPERATION FOR THE TOURNAMENTS THEN? UH, TOURNAMENTS USUALLY START BETWEEN NINE AND 12 AND MAYBE OVER BETWEEN THREE AND FIVE. OKAY, SO NINE TO FIVE. SO NINE TO FIVE. WE COULD, WE WOULD, WE COULD DO THE TOURNAMENTS. NINE TO FIVE. YEAH. NON TOURNAMENT DAYS, INCLUDING GLOW NIGHTS OR WHATEVER. THEY ARE OVER BY 8, 7, 8, 9. WHAT COULD WE DO IT AT 10, 10 [02:05:01] O'CLOCK? UH, USUALLY IT WOULD START AT SEVEN 30. IT'D BE OVER BY 9 30, 10. AND THAT'S OUR FRIEND IS THAT CLEAR? I DO APOLOGIZE. WE JUST HAVE TO KEEP ONLY TESTIMONY UP HERE. OKAY. YOU TESTIFIED TO THERE NOT BEING ANY SPECTATORS AT THE EVENTS. YOU DON'T ANTICIPATE PEOPLE COMING TO WATCH? THERE COULD BE A COUPLE SPECTATORS, BUT USUALLY PEOPLE THAT TAKE THOSE STUFF SPECTATORS, SOMEBODY MIGHT HAVE THEIR KID OR WIFE THAT WANTS TO WATCH SOMETHING. MM-HMM . SO I CAN'T SAY THAT THERE WOULDN'T BE ME, BUT IT MIGHT BE IN THE SAME CAR. YEAH, IT WOULD PROBABLY CARPOOL WITH THE PERSON THEY CAME WITH. RIGHT. IT WOULDN'T BE A LOT OF EXTRA PEOPLE. AND HOW DO YOU, HOW DO YOU PLAN TO ADVERTISE FOR THE TOURNAMENTS OR JUST IN GENERAL? I MEAN, DO YOU HAVE A WEBSITE OR SO? NO, IT WOULD BE, UH, THERE'S A, UH, ASSOCIATION CALLED THE PDGA PROFESSIONAL DISC GOLF ASSOCIATION. SO IN EVERY SCHEDULE A TOURNAMENT, AND WE CAME THROUGH THAT WEBSITE. DO YOU DO LIKE FACEBOOK POSTINGS OR ANYTHING IN ADDITION TO THE OFFICIAL WEBSITE? WELL, I, I WOULD POST IT ON FACEBOOK ONCE IF WE GET APPROVAL. MM-HMM . OKAY. SO I GUESS THE, THE NEXT QUESTIONS I WANTED TO GO TO WAS THE PARKING. AND YOU KNOW, YOU HAD TALKED ABOUT, UM, LET'S SEE, SIGNAGE, HIRING SOMEONE TO MAKE SURE THAT PEOPLE WALK IN THE APPROPRIATE ALLERS ALL KIDS. YEAH. MY MOM ACTUALLY LIKES DOING PARKING, SHOWING PEOPLE HER CAR. SHE WOULD, I VOLUNTEERED. IS THERE ANY LIKE EASEMENT? LIKE DID, WOULD THEY NEED AN EASEMENT TO WALK THROUGH? LIKE IF WE'RE APPROVING, WOULD THEY NEED CROSS ACCESS EASEMENTS AGAINST CROSS ALONG THE BB PROPERTY? TECHNICALLY, YES. BUT THAT IS SOME THEY WOULD NEED PERMISSION FROM. BUT THEY HAVE PERMISSION, THEY HAVE A PARKING PERMISSION. CORRECT. THEY HAVE PARKING PERMISSION. BUT DO THEY HAVE PERMISSION FOR PEOPLE TO BE WALKING ON THEIR PROPERTIES? I GUESS THAT'S DIFFERENT. RIGHT? THEY'VE GIVEN US PERMISSION TO WALK AND USE THEIR . SO THE BOARD, THE BOARD COULD IMPOSE THE REQUIREMENT TO HAVE A CROSS ACCESS, ACCESS EASEMENT TO PERMIT THE WALKING BACK AND FORTH. MM-HMM . TO FOLLOW UP ON THAT, THAT WOULD ALSO BE USED IN THAT DRIVEWAY. RIGHT. BECAUSE IF, IF THE NEIGHBOR SOLD THE PROPERTY, THEORETICALLY THE NEW NEIGHBOR COULD RESTRICT THE USE OF THAT PART OF THE DRIVEWAY FOR THEM TO GO PARK AT THE UDI AT THEIR COURSE. OR ARE YOU, ARE, ARE YOU USING THE GRAVEL DRIVEWAY OR ARE YOU USING MOST OF THE CARS WHICH WAY THEY COME IN? FOR, FOR THE CHURCH? NO, FOR THE, FOR THE DISK UDI FOR THE, UH, GOLF COURSE. 'CAUSE RIGHT. YOU HAVE A GRAVEL STONE. THE GRAVEL DRIVEWAY WOULD BE THE EXIT. OKAY. AND THE PAVE DRIVEWAY WOULD BE THE, WHICH IS THE SHARED DRIVEWAY. CORRECT. THE PAVE DRIVEWAY IS THE SHARED DRIVEWAY. THAT BRINGS UP A GOOD POINT THOUGH. LIKE YOU SAID, IF THE NEIGHBOR SELLS THE PROPERTY, BB SELL THEIR PROPERTY, IS THIS WHOLE THING NULL AND VOID AT THIS POINT? OR HOW DOES THAT WORK? SO THE BBS ALREADY TRANSFERRED THEIR PROPERTY INTO THE MORGANS AND WE'VE GOT THE PERMISSION LETTER FROM YOUR AS WELL. WHO ARE THE MORGANS, THEIR FAMILY OF THE BB THEIR FAMILY. BUT I MEAN, IF IT'S THE MORGANS SELL THEIR PROPERTY TO SOMEBODY ELSE, WE WOULD AGREE THAT IF, IF, IF, I MEAN, IF A PERMISSION LETTER IS RESCINDED BY ANY OF THE PROPERTY OWNERS, THAT THE ACTIVITY HAS TO STOP. RIGHT. 'CAUSE THE LAND USE WOULD GO THAT IF IT WAS, IF IT WAS APPROVED, IT WOULD STAY WITH THE PROPERTY EASEMENT. I MEAN, MAYBE WHAT WE COULD DO IS GET THE CROSS ACCESS EASEMENT SO THAT THEY, IF, IF, IF, IF THE PROPERTY IS CONVEYED THE EASEMENT SPACE. RIGHT. THAT IS, THAT'S A LOT OF WORK FOR SOME, IT SEEMS LIKE A LOT OF WORK FOR, SEEMS LIKE A LOT OF WORK, BOB. JUST YEAH, THAT WOULD TIE IT DOWN. PERPETRATOR, I DON'T WANNA DO TOO MUCH PRO BONO WORK. DON'T THINK THAT ON THE PROPERTY WOULD YEAH. VALUE OF THE PROPERTY. YEAH. WELL, I, I THINK THE BETTER THING IS, IS THAT THE ACTIVITY CONTINUES FOR AS LONG AS WE GOT THE, THE AGREEMENT THAT BB MORGANS AS WELL AS THEY CONSENT TO IT, THAT PRODUCED, THEY HAVEN'T DONE THAT. I MEAN, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT, WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT RIPPING OUT MASSIVE STRUCTURES HERE. WE'RE TALKING ABOUT 18 HOLES AND A [02:10:01] COUPLE 18 BASKETS AND A COUPLE ASPER, UH, TEA BOXES, WHICH IS, WHICH ARE ALREADY IN PLACE. YEAH. THEY'RE EASY TO REMOVED. IT WOULD ONLY BE FOUR DAYS OUT OF THE YEAR WHERE THE PARKING WOULD BE ON THE NEIGHBORS AND THE CHURCH APPROVAL. I, I THINK I READ, UM, YOU NEEDED APPROVAL FROM THEIR BOARD OF DIRECTORS. WE RECEIVED THAT. YOU DID? YEAH. OKAY. DO WE HAVE THAT? WE, WE, I I I'M 99% POSITIVE I READ IT, BUT I DID. YES, I SAW THE EMAIL. THAT'S CORRECT. THAT'S CORRECT. OKAY. IT WAS SUBMITTED. UM, AND THE, AND THE CHURCH DID SIGN OFF ON THE APPLICATION AS WELL. OKAY. THAT WAS ONE OF THE CHECKLIST REQUIREMENTS FOR THIS HEARING COULD HAPPEN. OKAY. ALRIGHT. I THINK I'VE ASKED ENOUGH QUESTIONS. IS IT, DOES UH, ANYONE FROM THE BOARD HAVE ANY ADDITIONAL QUESTIONS BEFORE I, UM, GO TO OUR PROFESSIONALS? NO. OKAY. DON'T FIGHT OVER WHO GOES FIRST. I WAS GONNA GO FIRST. LADIES FIRST. IT'S PROBABLY BETTER THAT I GO FIRST BECAUSE I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT THAT WE SORT OF, UM, GET AWAY FROM SOME OF THE, THE SITE ISSUES AND START TALKING ABOUT THE ORDINANCE ISSUES AND, AND THINGS LIKE THAT. UM, YOU KNOW, AS THIS TYPICAL, YOU KNOW, OUR CORRESPONDENCE, WE TALK ABOUT, UM, THE, THE PROPERTIES AND THEY'RE CHARACTERIZING THAT BLOCK. 9 0 8 LOT 2.01 IS ABOUT 15.36 ACRES. SO IN YOUR ESTIMATION, WHEN, WHEN WE ESTIMATED THAT ABOUT 50% OF THE PROPERTY IS WETLANDS, DID YOU AGREE WITH THAT ESTIMATION OR NOT? WELL, THE, THE WETLANDS IS DELINEATED ON THE SURVEY PLAN WHEN THEY BOUGHT THE PROPERTY. UM, AND I MEAN, THE DELINEATION OF THE WETLANDS AS FAR AS THE COURSE, WE SHOW WHERE THE BASKETS ARE. THERE'S ONLY ONE HOLE THAT THERE'S A WETLANDS ATTACHED SOMEWHERE IN THE MIDDLE OF, BETWEEN THE, THE BASKET AND THE HOLE. AND IT'S NOT EVEN A LONG HOLE EITHER. RIGHT. I, I UNDERSTAND THAT, BUT I'M NOT, I'M TRYING TO GET TO IS HOW MUCH ACTUAL SPACE THERE IS. SO I'M ASSUMING THERE'S ABOUT SEVEN ACRES OF ALL PLANTS MM-HMM . WOULD THAT BE A, A PROPER ASSUMPTION? YES. OKAY. SO, UM, SO I THINK THAT'S IMPORTANT JUST TO, TO CLARIFY FOR THE RECORD, HAPPENS IS AVAILABLE. UM, SO THE ONLY OTHER THING THAT I HAD A QUESTION ABOUT, WELL, WHERE ARE A FEW THINGS I DO? UH, WHERE IS THE, THE WALKING PATH THAT GOES FROM THE METHODIST CHURCH AND CROSS BEACH PROPERTY TO HERE? WHERE, WHERE IS THAT AT THE BACK END OF THE A PARKING OR THE GRAVEL PARKING LOT? THERE'S A LITTLE PATH MADE TO, AND IT WOULDN'T, WOULDN'T SEE CLOSE TO THE ROAD HUNDRED. UM, SO, UM, THIS IS THE GMS DISTRICT THERE. UM, INDOOR AND OUTDOOR RECREATION USES ARE NOT COMMITTED IN THE DISTRICT AS YOU'RE AWARE. UM, YOU KNOW, IN THE NARRATIVE THERE IS CONVERSATION ABOUT THIS BEING A POSITIVE PUBLIC RECREATIONAL USE. I UNDERSTAND THAT IN THE COURSE OF TESTIMONY THAT, UM, APPLICANT'S ATTORNEY DID INDICATE THAT, UM, THEY WERE ABANDONING THAT. UM, I DO THINK THAT, UM, IT'S IMPORTANT TO RECOGNIZE THOUGH THAT, YOU KNOW, THESE KINDS OF THINGS ARE, YOU KNOW, THEY'RE NEIGHBORHOOD POOLS, THEY'RE NEIGHBORHOOD TENNIS COURTS, NEIGHBORHOOD CLUBHOUSES, THOSE KINDS OF THINGS. SO I, YOU KNOW, I DON'T, THIS IS NOT EVEN CLOSE TO A CAUSING PUBLIC USE IN, IN THAT REGARD. UM, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WE DO TALK ABOUT ON PAGE THREE SIX IS ABOUT, UM, THE NORTH AMERICAN INDUSTRIAL CLASSIFICATION SYSTEM, WHICH IS SOMETHING THE UNITED STATES TO CHARACTERIZE VARIOUS INDUSTRIAL USES THROUGHOUT THE UNITED STATES. ANY USE? UM, AND SO ONE OF THE THINGS I THINK THAT, UM, IS IMPORTANT TO RECOGNIZE THAT IF THIS WERE PERMITTED, WE WOULD, UM, LOOK AT IT SIMILARLY TO GYMS OR RACQUETBALL CLUBS OR RIDING CLUBS OR SKI SHOOTING CLUBS OR DRIVING RANGES FOR MINIATURE GOLF COURSES. WE WOULD, YOU KNOW, COMPARATIVELY LOOK AT THIS AS A SIMILAR TYPE OF USE. UM, AND ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I, I, I HAVE ISSUES OR CONCERNS ABOUT OVER TIMES THAT WHEN, WHENEVER THE BOARD GRANTS USE VARIANCE, THERE'S ALWAYS THIS CHANCE OF CREEP, RIGHT? SO IF SOMETHING, UH, CHANGES OVER TIME, UH, IT BECOMES SOME OTHER USE, IT BECOMES A, A WHATEVER, RIGHT? 'CAUSE IT'S RELATED TO, UM, THIS KIND OF ABUSE, RIGHT? SO, YOU KNOW, IF WE WERE TO EVALUATE THIS IN A POSITIVE LIGHT, WE WOULD SAY, OH, OKAY, THAT WE COULD HAVE A RIDING CLUB [02:15:01] HERE, OR SKI SHOOTING CLUB HERE, OR DRIVING RANGER OR MINIATURE GOLF COURSE. SO IT'S IN THAT FAMILY OF USES, WE, WE WOULD STIPULATE THAT IT CAN ONLY BE USED FOR DISC. I UNDERSTAND THAT. OKAY. I UNDERSTAND THAT MS. NORMAN. MY, MY POINT IS SIMPLY THAT ONCE, IF YOU EXPERIENCE THIS, GRANTED THINGS TEND TO, UM, IN 20 YEARS OR SO, 10 YEARS, THEY CAN CHANGE AND THEY, YOU KNOW, THINGS CHANGE. UM, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WE ALSO TALK ABOUT IS THEY ASK FOR A SITE PLAN WAIVER. UM, WE THINK THAT THAT'S, UM, NOT APPROPRIATE. UM, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I THINK THAT WE'RE CONCERNED ABOUT IN PARTICULAR IS, YOU KNOW, THE APPLICANT HAS TALKED ABOUT CASUAL PLAY. THEY TALKED ABOUT TOURNAMENTS, BUT THEY HAVEN'T TALKED ABOUT SOME OF THE THINGS THAT ARE ONLINE. LIKE, LIKE IT'S, UH, IT'S IN, UH, YOU GOLF. I THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, YOU CAN, YOU CAN HAVE A 20 HOLE LAYOUT AND I GUESS YOU JUST LIKE DUPLICATE A HOLE. IS THAT WHAT YOU DO FOR A 20 HOLE LAYOUT? SAME BASKET FROM DIFFERENT, DIFFERENT DIRECTIONS. UM, AND I THINK THE OTHER CONCERN WE HAVE IS THAT, YOU KNOW, THERE THIS WHOLE PROPERTY IS FRAMED BY WETLANDS AND WE RECOGNIZE THAT THERE'S A WETLANDS ON THE SITE. UM, BUT CLEARLY IF YOU THROW THE DISC OFF, IT'S GOING TO GO INTO THE WETLANDS AND YOU HAVE TO GO GET IT. YOU KNOW, THERE, THERE'S, IT'S NOT, IT'S NOT AVOIDABLE. YEAH. UM, BECAUSE OF THE, THE RING AROUND THE NECK OF THIS PROPERTY THAT IS WETLANDS. SO, UM, WE DO EXPRESS SOME CONCERN ABOUT IMPACTS TO THE WETLANDS. AND WHEN WE WATCHED THE NEWS OF TOURNAMENTS, IT WAS CLEAR THAT PEOPLE WERE IN THE WETLANDS RETRIEVING, UM, EQUIPMENT. IT, UM, WITH RESPECT TO THE BATHROOM FACILITIES, UM, YOU KNOW, IF THEY HAVE ACCESSIBILITY ISSUES, YOU'RE GONNA HAVE TO HAVE ACCESSIBLE BATHROOM FACILITIES AND THOSE SORTS OF THINGS. UM, THERE WAS NO, UH, TESTIMONY, UH, THERE WAS SOME TESTIMONY, UM, OFFERED BY MR. NORMAN ABOUT THE FACT THAT IF A GREEN ACRE SITE IS ALLOWED TO BE RECREATION, THEN THAT IF THERE'S NO NECESSARILY NEGATIVE ENVIRONMENTAL IMPACTS, THAT THE DP WOULD SOMEHOW CHECK THAT THAT'S NOT, NOT EXACTLY THE CASE. UM, GREEN ACRES DOESN'T. THERE ARE USES THAT THEY ALLOW ON GREEN ACRES PROPERTY THAT MAY OR MAY NOT IMPACT, UM, SPECIES AND PLANTS AND ANIMALS. SO THAT'S, THAT'S NOT A, A FACTUAL STATEMENT. SO WE HAVE QUESTIONS ABOUT THE IMPACTS TO THE FORESTED SITES SUCH AS ROOF COMPACTION, UM, SOIL EROSION OF PARKING AREAS, THE TEES, THE WALKING PADS ON THE BASKETS, RIGHT? IF THERE ARE PEOPLE WALKING OVER THE, THE SITE ON A REGULAR BASIS, THEY'RE GONNA DO THERE ROOF ACTION AND THAT THE FOREST WILL BE NEGATIVELY IMPACTED BY THAT. UM, WE TALKED ABOUT THE WETLANDS. THEY DID TALK ABOUT LITTER. UM, AND I GUESS THE, THE MUNICIPAL TRASH AND RECYCLING IS WHAT WE USING, UH, FOR, FOR WASTE HAULING. UM, THEY DID INDICATE THEY WERE GONNA CHECK FOR LITTER. UM, I, YOU KNOW, AND I APPRECIATE THAT, THAT IT'S YOUR PROPERTY. I MEAN, CLEARLY THERE'S TWO USES ON ONE LAB. THERE'S A DWELLING UNIT HERE, UM, THAT YOU'RE GONNA POLICE DISRUPTIVE AND DISRUPT DIS DISRESPECTFUL PLAYERS. UM, BUT YOU KNOW, I THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, IF IT'S AN OPEN FORCE AND PEOPLE CAN GO THERE, IT'S POSSIBLE. IS IS IT TRUE? IS IT POSSIBLE THAT THERE WON'T BE SOMEBODY THERE ALL THE TIME? RIGHT? YOU DON'T, THEY'RE NOT ALWAYS AT THE HOUSE. SOMEONE'S NOT ALWAYS THERE. SO THERE WOULD BE AN OCCASION FOR PEOPLE TO BE THERE AND NOT NECESSARILY BEING RESPECTFUL OF THE PEOPLE ARE SUPPOSED TO REACH OUT, BUT THEY CAN STILL ARGUE THERE. YOUR MOTHER-IN-LAW RESIDE THERE. CONDITION? NO, MY FATHER, MY FATHER WAS THERE. HE HAS DEMENTIA, BUT HE'S ALWAYS, HE'S USUALLY ALWAYS, THAT SUCKS. UM, YOU KNOW, UH, WE UNDERSTAND THAT YOU INDICATED THAT, YOU KNOW, DISC DUMB AND HARTFORD ROAD. WE, WE HOPE THAT'S NOT THE CASE. UM, UH, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WE, WE DO HAVE CONCERNS ABOUT IS, YOU KNOW, AS LIKE IF YOU'RE AT A POOL CLUB, THERE'S LIGHTNING SENSORS, THERE'S, YOU CAN HAVE LIGHTNING GO OFF WHEN YOU'RE HAVING A TOURNAMENT AND THERE'S NO PLACE TO GO HERE. THERE'S LITERALLY NO PLACE TO HIDE. UM, EXCEPT A, A CAR WHICH COULD BE ON SITE OR, OR OFF THE SITE, UM, THE TOURNAMENT WOULD BE CANCELED INSURANCE. SO I I DO YOU HAVE INSURANCE CURRENTLY AS THE DESIGNER AND THE BUILDER AND, AND FOR, OF THE EVENTS THAT YOU HAVE OUT THERE RIGHT NOW, YOU HAVE INSURANCE. YEAH, THERE'S INSURANCE. BUT WHEN YOU DO A [02:20:01] THROUGH PGA, IT COMES PART OF THE FEE IS THE BILLING OF INSURANCE. WELL, WHAT ABOUT LIKE, YOU'RE THE DESIGNER OF THE COURSE. DO YOU HAVE INSURANCE AS THE DESIGNER OF THE COURSE? JUST HOMEOWNERS INSURANCE. AND I, YOU SHOULD TALK TO YOUR AGENT ABOUT THAT. I DON'T THINK THEY'LL COVER THAT. SO JUST, IT'S IMPORTANT TO RECOGNIZE THAT, THAT YOU, YOU NEED TO MANAGE THIS. UM, SO, UH, ONE OF THE VIDEOS WE WATCHED, UH, THEY WERE USING THE SEWER MOUNT MANHOLE AND THEY WERE USING A LADDER TO CLIMB OFF TO THE TOP OF IT TO RETRIEVE THE DISCOURSE. I DON'T THINK THAT'S APPROPRIATE. SO CAN CAN YOU TALK ABOUT THAT AND PERHAPS AGREE NOT TO DO THAT? WELL, WE COULD MOVE THE BASKET THEY ALL FOR. I THOUGHT THAT IT WAS ON MY PROPERTY AND I THINK USE IT. NO, NO, WE CAN MOVE. PLEASE SIR. NO. UM, ARE THERE LESSONS OR CLINICS OFFERED AT THE SITE? NOT CURRENTLY. IS THERE ANY PLAN TO DO THAT IF IT'S APPROVED TO BE ABLE TO HAVE THE DISC GOLF COURSE THERE? YOU, YOU WOULD, YOU WOULDN'T BE HAVING GLASSES? NO. THERE'D BE NO GLASSES. NO, I'M GONNA LEAVE THE ROAD DRIVEWAY TO YOU, CHRIS. I HAVE THAT IN MY LETTER. I TALK ABOUT, YOU KNOW, THIS DRIVEWAY CLOSEST TO THE CREEK. UM, YOU KNOW, THE, UM, AS A VEHICLE, UM, YOU KNOW, WE DO THINK THAT, UM, THE PARKING SPACES SHOULD BE DELINEATED ON THE SITE PLAN OR CONTRIBUTE FOR THE ZONING OFFICER'S USE. UM, AND UH, PARTICULARLY BECAUSE WE WOULDN'T WANT TO SEE THAT SPACE, THOSE SPACES CREEP INTO OTHER PARTS OF THE PROPERTY AND THAT THAT NUMBER OF SPACES BE EXCEEDED. UM, YOU KNOW, I THINK WE HAD AN EASEMENTS DISCUSSION. UH, YOU KNOW, THERE, THERE CLEARLY IS LIGHTING OF THE, THE TVS AT NIGHT. UM, I'M NOT SURE OF THE IMPACTS OF THAT. I'M SURE THAT IF, IF THERE ARE IMPACTS THAT THE NEIGHBORS WILL DISCUSS THAT, UM, YOU KNOW, THERE ARE, UH, REQUIREMENTS REGARDING BLARE BEING ABLE THE LEG SOURCE. UM, AND THEN I GUESS, UM, OVERALL, YOU KNOW, CLEARLY THESE ARE PORTABLE. THE TEES ARE PORTABLE. THE, THE, UM, THE BASKETS ARE PORTABLE, SO IT COULD BE REARRANGED AT VARIOUS POINTS IN TIME. AND I DON'T KNOW HOW, UM, YOU SHOW THEM ON A PLAN THAT'S WHERE THEY'RE GONNA GO EXCEPT FOR THE ONE THAT HAS TO BEATED ALL PANEL. AND IF THERE'S A CONCERN THAT THERE COULD BE PLANE OF COURSE, BACKWARDS, YOU COULD WITHIN THE RESOLUTION THAT IT'S ONE WAY DIRECTION. SO THAT DOESN'T CHANGE. UH, I MEAN, I DON'T KNOW THAT, THAT THAT MAKES ANY MORE SENSE THAN, THAN SWITCHING THE BASKET AND, AND THE, UM, I JUST, I DON'T, I'M TRYING TO, UH, PIN SOMETHING DOWN THAT'S NOT VERY EASY TO PIN DOWN. DOES THE COURT HAVE ANY QUESTIONS FOR ME? CAN WE, IS THE SITE PLAN WAIVER SOMETHING THAT WE COULD JUST MAKE A DECISION ON NOW? SO IT NEEDS TO BE REQUIRED? YEAH. MADAM CHAIR, ONE OF THE CONDITION PRECEDENTS TO BE, BE PERMITTED TO APPLY FOR THE SITE PLAN WAIVER IS IT HAS TO BE ONE NON ONE PERMITTED NON-RESIDENTIAL USE, GOING TO ANOTHER PERMITTED NON-RESIDENTIAL USE. AND THEN THERE'S CRITERIA UNDERNEATH IT, BUT THEY NEED A USE VARIANCE. SO IT'S A, A PERMITTED USE, BUT IT'S A NON PERMITTED USE THAT IT'S GOING TO, THAT'S WHY IN THE EVENT THE BOARD WAS INCLINED TO GRANT THE USE VARIANCE, YOU SHOULD REQUIRE THEM TO COME BACK FOR A MI A MINOR SITE PLAN. RIGHT. I HAVE, I HAVE ONE QUESTION. SURE. SO I'M LOOKING AT SOMETHING THAT, UM, UH, FROM ONLINE AND IT'S ABOUT AN EVENT. UM, IT SAYS IT'S FRIDAY, NOVEMBER, I DON'T KNOW. IT SAYS IT'S UPCOMING BECAUSE THIS FRIDAY IS NOT NOVEMBER. YES, IT'S SATURDAY. UM, WHAT IS, UH, WHITAKER WOODS EXPLODE DOUBLES. IS THAT AN EVENT OR IS THAT JUST A REGULAR PLAY? IT'S JUST A REGULAR PLAY PLAY PARK. AND THERE'S A BUY-IN AND A PAYOUT. SO THAT'S NOT CONSIDERED AN EVENT, A FARM EVENT. WHAT IS THAT? HOW MANY PEOPLE WOULD BE THERE FOR THAT? UH, I DUNNO HOW MANY PEOPLE WOULD COME, BUT IT'S USUALLY NOT MORE THAN 10 15. OKAY. SO THIS IS LIKE A NORMAL EVENING. IT'S USUALLY DONE 9 30 10. THANK YOU. YOU'RE WELCOME [02:25:02] MR. NOLL. THANK YOU. UM, MICHELLE WENT THROUGH A LOT OF, ALSO INCLUDED IN MY USED SPECIFICALLY, UM, NORMALLY ASK TRIP GENERATION COMPARISON REPORT. UH, DID GET AN EMAIL FROM MR. NORMAN YESTERDAY THAT THERE WAS, UH, 54 COPIES FOR TO SAID SO, AND SUPPOSED TO COMPARE THAT TRAFFIC COUNT TO A PERMITTED USE PERMITTED USE HOUSE. RIGHT. SO HOW WOULD YOU PREPARE THE TRAFFIC HOUSE? WELL, IT'S OBVIOUSLY IT'S DIFFERENT. MAYBE, MAYBE A BETTER COMPARISON IS THE CONDITIONAL USE OF AQUATIC PUBLIC USE, LIKE A TENNIS SPORT. TENNIS SPORTS OR SWIM CLUB OR WHATEVER THOSE OTHER USES THAT BY DESIGNATING AS A CONDITIONAL USE, IF YOU MEET THE CONDITIONS AND WE'RE ASKING FOR CONDITIONS ON THE USE VARIANCE, WE'RE WE'RE BASICALLY SAYING THAT, UH, WE, WE, WE'LL HAVE SUFFICIENT PARKING FOR THE USE. I I MEAN IF WE NEED A PARKING VARIANCE, WE, WE WOULD BELIEVE THAT'S SUBSUMED WITHIN THE USE VARIANCE AND WE'RE PROVIDING 90 PARKING SPACES WHEN PROBABLY PROBABLY NEED ABOUT 40. CORRECT. SO, SO THIS IS NOT ABOUT PARKING, IT'S ABOUT GENERAT GENERATIONAL IMPACT ON LOCAL ROADS CAN BE HARD ROADS, RIGHT? WELL, ALL, ALL, ALL I CAN TELL YOU IS IS IT'S, THERE'S GONNA BE WITHIN THE PEAK HOUR, WHICH IS PROBABLY WITHIN THE, THE HOUR OF TIME BEFORE A TOURNAMENT STARTS, THERE'S GONNA BE ABOUT 44 STEPS. AND I THINK HOUR WOULD BE, YOU SAY COMBINED 12 SOME SOMEWHERE IN THAT RANGE ON SATURDAY? YES. THREE, FIVE, YES. SOMETHING LIKE THAT. YEAH. OKAY. BUT IT WOULD BE SUBSTANTIALLY MORE THAN A SINGLE FAMILY HOUSE, HUH? YES. THAT'S A LOT OF CARS. WHICH FOR A NORM, WHICH FOR WHAT WOULD NORMALLY BE JUST A RESIDENCE, A SINGLE RESIDENCE, 40 CARS GOING, BUT IT'S NOT A REGULAR FOUR, THAT'S FOUR DS UH, 365. IT'S, IT'S, IT'S, IT'S A MINOR INCONVENIENCE. JUST THE SAME AS A MINOR INCONVENIENCE OF THE HOW WE FRAME WHERE EVERYTHING GETS DIVERTED. BECAUSE YOU CAN'T DRIVE THROUGH BED VERSIONS. SOMETIMES YOU HAVE LITTLE TINY INCONVENIENCES. THAT DOESN'T MEAN EVERYTHING IS A NO, IT SHOULD BE, IT SHOULD BE. MM-HMM . SO I, SORRY CHRIS, I APPRECIATE THAT EXCHANGE. HOWEVER, UM, SO THIS IS MORE AKIN TO YOUR NEIGHBOR HAVING A RACE WALKING EVENT AND HAVING A RACE WALKING EVENT IN YOUR NEIGHBORHOOD EVERY FOUR TIMES A YEAR OR, OR YOU KNOW, THE TU TRIATHLON MM-HMM . OR THE TRIATHLON. RIGHT? THAT'S, THAT'S WHAT THIS IS. YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU START LOOKING AT THE IMPACTS TO THE NEIGHBORHOOD, RIGHT? SO, YOU KNOW, A BLOCK PARTY, THOSE KINDS OF THINGS. THAT'S, THAT'S WHAT THIS IS. UM, AND YOU NEED TO, TO GET APPROVALS FOR THOSE. MM-HMM. AND, AND VIRTUAL PRIDE HAS OVER 200 AND THERE'S A CHURCH RIGHT NEXT TO US THAT THEY HAVE A LOT MORE TRAFFIC. SO THE FIFTH GENERATION COMPARISON GOES TO POSITIVE NEGATIVE CRITERIA. UM, MICHELLE, ABOUT THE ONE THING WE TALK ABOUT THE UM, I STRONGLY BELIEVE THAT, I MEAN OBVIOUSLY WE WETLAND THE PERSON WALKING AROUND, BUT I'M NOT SURE ABOUT AN ACTIVITY IN THE WETLANDS IN THE, SO THAT WOULD COME WHEN YOU HAD YOUR SITE PLAN ADDRESS PARKING, ACCESS, SIGNAGE, ET CETERA, OR THINGS THAT WE ALREADY TALKED ABOUT. AND WHEN YOU DO SUBMIT YOUR SITE PLAN, YOU'RE GONNA HAVE TO HAVE CERTIFICATE FILE FILING. AND I THINK THAT'S GONNA BE THE CRITICAL PART OF THE WHOLE, WE UNDERSTAND WE WOULD DO THAT. SO I MEAN REALLY THE USE VARIANCE WOULD BE SUBJECT TO SITE PLAN APPROVAL AND, AND CERTIFICATE OF FILING FOR PINELANDS OTHER RELIEF AND MAYBE GIVE IT THE NONPROFIT NATURE OF THE USE SOME CONSIDERATION AND THEN, UH, SITE PLANNING. UNDERSTOOD. THAT'S NOT AN ISSUE. UM, I DON'T THINK WE TALKED ABOUT NOISE. [02:30:03] NOISE OF NOISE THERE. ANY EXCESSIVE NOISE. IF SOMEONE GETS A HOLE IN ONE, THEY GO, THEY MIGHT SHOUT, BUT THAT'S, THAT, THAT DOESN'T HAPPEN VERY WELL. WELL, WHAT ABOUT THE, I'VE SEEN ONE, THE BAND, THE LIVE MUSIC THAT, OR THE BONFIRES, IT SEEMS LIKE IT'S MORE THAN JUST, WOULD YOU AGREE TO A RESTRICTION? NO, NO BANDS. YEAH, WE CAN DO NO BANDS. I DIDN'T KNOW THAT YOU WEREN'T ALLOWED TO HAVE MUSIC ON THE PROPERTY. I'M NOT SAYING SAYING THAT YOU, NOT SAYING CAN'T HAVE MUSIC ON YOUR PROPERTY, BUT IF WE'RE TALKING ABOUT NOISE RELATED TO THE USE VARIANCE, THEN WE ARE GOING TO TALK ABOUT HAVING MUSIC ON THE PROPERTY. THAT'S, THAT'S, THAT'S FAIR. OKAY. MOST OF MY OTHER COMMENTS DEAL WITH THE, UH, THE SITE PLAN. SO WHEN YOU GET TO THAT TALK AT THAT, AT THAT POINT, REALLY SERIOUS QUESTION AND CORRECT. CORRECT. BUT THEY CATEGORICALLY DO NOT COMPLY WITH THE SITE PLAN WAIVER REQUIREMENTS UNDER THE ORDINANCE. SO THEY AT THIS TIME WOULD BE A USE VARIANCE CONTINGENT UPON RETURNING FOR A SITE PLAN. ONE, ONE OTHER COMMENT FOR YOU, MICHELLE VERSUS THIS SITE. WHERE'S THE, UH, IT'S, IT'S OFF OF, UH, HAM ROAD AND IT'S, IT'S ON GREEN ACRES, ACRES PROPERTY. IT'S AN OPEN AREA COURSE. HUH? IT'S AN OPEN AREA, YES. AND THEY HAVE A PARKING LOT AREA, NOT IN WOODED AREA. AREA. IT'S A WOODED AREA, BUT IT'S, IT'S, IT, IT JUST UP THERE THAT'S A FINANCE. RIGHT. UNDERSTOOD. SO THERE'S NO FURTHER ACTION UNTIL WE GET SURVEY? NO. YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT THE SITE PLAN. SITE PLAN? NO. SO YOU, THE DECISION CAN BE MADE ON THE USE VARIANCE FIRST. IF THE USE VARIANCE IS, IF WE MOVE FORWARD, THEN THEY HAVE TO COME BACK FOR A SITE PLAN. CORRECT. AND IF THE SITE PLAN'S NOT APPROVED, THE USE VARIANCE GETS VACATED, RIGHT. OR DEEMED NULL AND VOID. MM-HMM . OKAY. , I HAD A QUESTION FOR YOU MR. NOLL. CAN YOU CLARIFY ABOUT THE TRAFFIC? YOU RIGHT, YOU WERE SAYING THAT, YOU KNOW, THE NORMAL TRAFFIC IS AT ONE SINGLE FAMILY HOME, BUT ARE WE SAYING THAT THE 40 CARS THAT THEY STATED IS THE ISSUES ON HARPER ROAD OR IS THAT JUST ON THEIR PROPERTY? RIGHT, BECAUSE I THINK 40 CARS, HARPER ROAD, ON HARPER ROAD IS IT'S IMPACT ON MUNICIPAL ROADS SURROUNDING ROAD. SO JUST THE IMPACT ON HARPER ROAD, IT'S MINIMAL. YEAH. AND DO YOU HAVE AN IDEA OF HOW MANY CARS WOULD PASS THROUGH HARPER ROAD DURING THE TIME OF PLAY? WELL, I DON'T WANNA TESTIFY FOR, AS EVERYBODY KNOWS, HARFORD ROAD, VERY ROAD RIGHT'S. PROBABLY NOT GONNA MAKE ANY SIGNIFICANT DIFFERENCE ALREADY. THANK YOU. OKAY. DOES ANYONE ELSE FROM THE BOARD HAVE ANY QUESTIONS OR COMMENTS? OKAY. UH, CAN I HAVE A MOTION TO OPEN IT? OPEN THIS TO THE PUBLIC MOTION. SECOND. ALL IN FAVOR? AYE. AYE. OKAY. IF THERE'S ANYONE HERE FROM THE PUBLIC WHO WISHES TO SPEAK ABOUT THIS APPLICATION, RAISE YOUR HAND. . OKAY, SO WE'LL START OVER HERE AND WORK OUR WAY OVER. SO, UM, WHOEVER ON THIS SIDE WANTS TO COME UP FIRST. ALL RIGHT, SIR, PLEASE RAISE YOUR RIGHT HAND. DO YOU SWEAR OR AFFIRM TO TELL THE TRUTH AND NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH, SO, SO HELP YOU GOD, PLEASE STATE YOUR NAME AND SPELL YOUR LAST FOR THE RECORD. JOSHUA, M-M-E-M-I-G. AND YOUR ADDRESS, ONE OR 19 NORTH FOCUS AVENUE, MARTON, NEW JERSEY. UM, I'VE BEEN DIS GOLFING FOR ABOUT TWO YEARS. WE CAN'T HEAR YOU. SORRY, THAT, STAY CLOSER TO NO, YOU CAN. GOT IT. UH, I'VE BEEN DIS GOLFING GROUP ABOUT TWO YEARS. UM, MY WIFE AND MY SON COME WITH ME. WE USUALLY ALL PLAY. UH, MY SON'S TWO YEARS OLD AND HE ALREADY HAS LIKE AN INCREDIBLE GROWING ARM. . UH, HE'S GONNA BE BETTER THAN ME PROBABLY IN NO TIME. UM, THIS COURSE IS HONESTLY JUST SUCH AN INCREDIBLE OUTREACH FOR MY FAMILY AND FOR OUR FRIENDS. UM, AND AS FAR AS LIKE CARS ARE CONSIDERED, WE USUALLY HAVE LIKE FIVE OR SIX GUYS. WE PLAY ALMOST EVERY WEEKEND, EVERY OTHER WEEKEND, AND WE ALL CARPOOL IN ONE CAR. UM, SO WE USUALLY ALL [02:35:01] JUST GET TOGETHER, UH, AND PLAY. I ALSO HELP RUN THE, UM, MEN'S GROUP AT MY CHURCH, FELLOWSHIP COMMUNITY CHURCH. UH, WE'VE DONE DISC GOLF OUTINGS, UM, AND THE WHITAKER HAVE GRACIOUSLY ALLOWED US TO USE THEIR PROPERTY. UH, IT'S NOT LIKE AN EVENT. WE BASICALLY JUST GO, IT'S A BUNCH OF GUYS FROM CHURCH . UH, AND I CAN SAY THAT THE GUYS AT CHURCH AREN'T DISC GOLFERS, SO THEY'RE NOT GREAT. UM, BUT WE HAVEN'T HAD TO RETRIEVE ANY DISCS FROM THE CREEK OR FROM ANYTHING, UM, IN LIKE THE WETLANDS AREA. UH, AND IT'S A GREAT COURSE FOR US TO BE ABLE TO KIND OF LIKE GO AS A CHURCH TO JUST BE ABLE TO, UM, GET NEW PLAYERS INTO DISC GOLF AND JUST TO KIND OF LIKE TALK ABOUT GOD AND JESUS AND FELLOWSHIP TOGETHER. UH, AND THERE'S USUALLY NOBODY ELSE ON THE COURSE WHEN WE'RE PLAYING. UM, I KNOW LIKE THERE'S OTHER PEOPLE THAT PLAY AND WE'LL OCCASIONALLY SEE ANOTHER GROUP OF ONE OR TWO PEOPLE. UM, BUT THE COURSE TRAFFIC IS REALLY NOT THAT FREQUENT ON A, UH, WEEKEND, AT LEAST FROM WHAT WE'VE SEEN. THANK YOU. THANKS. PLEASE RAISE YOUR RIGHT HAND. DO YOU SWEAR OR AFFIRM TO TELL THE TRUTH AND NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH, SO HELP YOU GOD? I DO. PLEASE STATE YOUR NAME AND SPELL YOUR LAST FOR THE RECORD. STEVEN SPONG, S-P-O-N-G. AND YOUR ADDRESS? 1 0 9 ROUTE 70 EAST MARLTON, NEW JERSEY. APARTMENT 1411. TAKE IT AWAY. SO I'M BASICALLY JUST SPEAKING TO YOU AS A CHARACTER WITNESS. A LOT OF THE TOPICS THAT BEEN DISCUSSED HERE, UM, ARE VERY MINUTE, UH, SOME OF WHICH ARE BASED IN SOME VERY THINGS THAT ARE VERY CLOSE TO ME. THE ONLY OTHER, UH, COMMISSION, THE BOARD BEING I'VE EVER BEEN A PART OF WHEN COMES LOCAL GOVERNMENT IS THE PINELANDS COMMISSION. SO IT'S A TOPIC THAT I WON'T READ TO MYSELF. I WAS, UH, INVOLVED A LITTLE BIT IN THE, UM, BLACK RUN PRESERVE IN MARCH AND THE DISCUSSION GOING ON THAT. SO MY EXPERIENCE AT WHITAKER HAS ALWAYS BEEN POSITIVE. I'VE NEVER HAD A ANY EXPERIENCE. I'VE NEVER HEARD ANYBODY SPEAK OF MANY EXPERIENCE. UM, THIS DOES NOT TAKE AWAY FROM ANY CONCERNS OF NEIGHBORS OF WHICH, UH, ARE GOING TO SPEAK AFTER ME. UH, I CAN SAY THAT DISC GOLF IN ITSELF IS A FANTASTIC SPORT, AND THE PEOPLE I'VE MET IN IT HAVE BECOME LIFELONG FRIENDS. UH, I CAN'T THINK OF A FAMILY MORE FITTING TO RUN THIS PARTICULAR COURSE THAN THE WHITAKER'S. THEY HAVE BEEN EXTRAORDINARILY WELCOMING AND I TRULY BELIEVE THAT WHATEVER RESTRICTIONS OR APPLIES TO THIS VARIANCE OR, OR WHATEVER IT'S CALLED, UH, THEY WILL FOLLOW. UM, IT'S PRETTY MUCH THANK YOU. RAISE YOUR RIGHT HAND. DO YOU SWEAR OR AFFIRM, TELL THE TRUTH, NOTHING BUT THE TRUTHS, SO HELP YOU GOD? YES, SIR. PLEASE STATE YOUR NAME AND SPELL YOUR LAST FOR THE RECORD. NICHOLAS COMISO. C-O-M-M-I-S-S-O. AND YOUR ADDRESS? ONE 16. WELL, 3 58 A BARTON ON BOULEVARD, MARTON, NEW JERSEY. 8 5 3. TAKE IT AWAY. HOW YOU DOING EVERYBODY? MIKE? UH, I'VE BEEN PLAYING DISC GOLF FOR ABOUT THE LAST EIGHT YEARS, UH, AND TWO AND A HALF YEARS AGO I MOVED INTO MARLTON. UM, I MET BRANDON AT A COURSE IN PHILLY CALLED SLY WOODS, WHICH IS THE NUMBER ONE COURSE IN PENNSYLVANIA, UH, RIGHT IN FAIRMONT PARK. UH, GREAT GUY KNEW RIGHT AWAY THAT, YOU KNOW, I COULD TRUST HIM IN ANY SORT OF WAY AND IMMEDIATELY TOLD ME HE HAD A COURSE IN JERSEY. IT WAS VERY SIMILAR TO S WOODS. AND IF YOU'VE EVER PLAYED DISC GOLF, I'M SURE MOST OF THESE GUYS OVER HERE ON MY LEFT HAVE PLAYED IT. UH, IT'S A DREAM. IT'S, I'M A HUNTER, I'M A FISHERMAN. SO YOU WALK INTO THAT COURSE AND IT'S LIKE BEING IN YOUR TREE STAND, HOLDING A AN UGLY STICK IN A CREEK. YOU KNOW, IT'S JUST, IT. THESE COURSES ARE REALLY SOMETHING TO, TO ENJOY AND TO REALLY ADMIRE. UH, SO WHEN I FIRST PLAYED THERE, PULLED INTO HIS DRIVEWAY, PARKED UP LIKE IT SAYS ON THE WEBSITE, YOU MENTIONED YOU THIS, AND, UH, AS SOON AS I PULLED UP, HIM AND KELLY ARE AT THE WINDOW OR SOMETHING. HEY, HEY, YOU DOING? I'M KELLY, I'M BRANDON. THIS IS ME. YOU KNOW, I TOLD HIM WHO I WAS AND AT THE TIME MY WIFE WAS PREGNANT WITH OUR DAUGHTER. UM, AND IT WAS A HAING FOR ME TO GO TO WHEN SHE WAS TAKING NAPS AND, YOU KNOW, GROWING OUR LITTLE GIRL INSIDE OF HER. I'M FIVE MINUTES AWAY, RIGHT THROUGH CHRISTOPHER MILL'S NEIGHBORHOOD. UH, I COULD BASICALLY LONG BOARD THERE IF I WANTED TO. UH, I PLAYED SO MUCH THERE THAT I HAD OVER A HUNDRED ROUNDS THERE IN J IN JUST ON THAT U DISC APP. AND IN GEN IN WHOLE, I HAVE 358 ROUNDS ON THE APP. SO THAT JUST TELLS YOU HOW OFTEN I COULD, UH, SOMETIMES I GET TWO, THREE ROUNDS IN A DAY, DEPENDING ON THE DAY OF THE WEEK, WHAT'S GOING ON WITH THE FAMILY AND ALL THAT. UH, AS THE TWO GENTLEMAN BEFORE ME SAID, EVERYBODY IN THIS, IN THIS COMMUNITY IS GREAT WELCOMING. UM, I'VE EVEN GONE AS FAR AS TO, YOU KNOW, PLAY AROUND WITH SOME OF THESE GUYS. YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW. YOU TALK TO 'EM FOR A MINUTE, YOU'RE LIKE, HEY, YOU WANNA CONTINUE? LET'S PLAY TOGETHER. UM, YOU KNOW, YOU, YOU TALK FOR A WHILE AND YOU, YOU PLAY AGAIN. THE NEXT TIME YOU SEE EACH OTHER, MAYBE YOU DON'T. [02:40:01] UM, LIKE THEY SAID, SOMETIMES YOU'RE THERE. THERE'S NOBODY THERE. I PLAYED THERE FOR TWO OR THREE HOURS BY MYSELF WITHOUT A PEE. HIS KIDS COME OUT AND SAY HELLO TO YOU. ALL THREE OF 'EM WERE GREAT. UM, SHOOT HOOPS WITH 'EM WHEN YOU'RE AT HOLE 12, EVEN IF YOU WANT TO, THEY'RE SITTING THERE PLAYING BASKETBALL. UH, IT'S JUST THE BEST. IT'S, I MEAN, IT WON'T, I I REALLY TRULY BELIEVE IT'LL BE A GREAT IMPACT FOR THIS TOWN. UM, IT'S IMPACTED BY LIFE POSITIVELY IN EVERY SORT OF WAY. I CAN'T HUNT AS MUCH AS I USED TO BECAUSE OF MY DAUGHTER AND MY FAMILY. SO THIS SPORT IS A GOOD WAY TO GO, GET AN HOUR AND A HALF AWAY AND, YOU KNOW, DO YOUR THING AND COME BACK HOME AND, YOU KNOW, CONTINUE THE SPORT. AND, AND I WANT MY DAUGHTER TO PLAY. I WANT MY WIFE TO PLAY. UM, I THINK ANYBODY ON THIS PANEL WHO ENJOYS THE OUTSIDE AND LOVES TO BE OUTDOORS WOULD, WOULD AGREE THAT, YOU KNOW, SOMETHING LIKE THAT IS GOOD FOR ANYBODY. UM, I CAN KIND OF UNDERSTAND WHERE PEOPLE WOULD BE BOTHERED BY SOME OF THIS IN A WAY, BUT I REALLY CAN. AT THE SAME TIME, I'M SURE IF ANYBODY ON MY RIGHT SIDE WOULD COME AND PLAY, YOU KNOW, YOU PROBABLY REALLY ENJOY IT AND UNDERSTAND WHY WE WE'RE ALL, WHY EVERYONE ON THE LEFT IS HERE. UM, SOMETHING LIKE THIS CAN'T GO. IF YOU GUYS TAKE THIS OUT OF HERE, IT'S, IT'S A, IT'LL BE A SHAME OF THE COMMUNITY. IT TRULY WILL. AND IT'S, UH, THAT'S ALL I GOTTA SAY. THANK YOU. YEAH, PLEASE RAISE YOUR RIGHT HAND. DO YOU SWEAR OR AFFIRM TO TELL THE TRUTH? NOT BUT THE TRUTH HELP. SO HELP YOU. GOD, PLEASE STATE YOUR NAME AND SPELL YOUR LAST FOR THE RECORD. ERIC MOORE. M-O-O-R-E. AND YOUR ADDRESS? 2 0 6 EAST LEE BOULEVARD. BURY, TAKE IT AWAY. UH, SO I'VE BEEN PLAYING DISC GOLF, UH, FOR I GUESS ABOUT THREE YEARS NOW. UM, AND HONESTLY, WITHOUT MY TIME BEING ABLE TO PLAY AT WHITAKER WOODS, I PROBABLY WOULDN'T HAVE KEPT UP WITH THE SPORT. UH, THE OTHER DISC GOLF COURSES OTHER THAN STAFFORD WOODS, WHICH IS IN THE WOODS, UM, IS UH, THEY'RE OVER AN HOUR AWAY. SO, AND STAFF CAN GET PRETTY BUSY. UH, YOU CAN'T PLAY THERE ON A LOT OF WEEKENDS BECAUSE OF THE AMOUNT OF PLAY THAT IT GETS BECAUSE IT IS THE NUMBER ONE COURSE IN THE STATE. UM, AND SO TO HAVE THIS OPPORTUNITY BE ABLE TO PLAY AT THIS COURSE REALLY HAS GIVEN ME AN OPPORTUNITY TO GET OUTSIDE, TO ENJOY THE WOODS. UH, YOU KNOW, WE'RE ON THE COURSE AND THE DEER ARE WALKING THROUGH WHILE WE'RE PLAYING ON THE COURSE. UH, THEY'RE NOT AFRAID OF THE PEOPLE, YOU KNOW, THEY'RE IN THERE ALL OF THE TIME, UH, TO BE ABLE TO BE IN THERE. WE PLAYED THE OTHER NIGHT AND IT WAS IN THE EVENING, AND THE MIST IS COMING UP OFF OF, UH, THE CREEK AND COMING UP INTO THE COURSE. AND THE SUN IS SETTING. AND, YOU KNOW, JUST THE, THE ATMOSPHERE AND THE OWNERS OF THE PROPERTY, THEY, THEY'RE JUST SO WONDERFUL. THEY REALLY HAVE GONE OUT OF THEIR WAY TO MAKE SOMETHING THAT IS TRULY A GEM IN OUR TOWN. AND THAT HAS REALLY GIVEN US AN OPPORTUNITY TO INTRODUCE MORE PEOPLE INTO THE SPORT. UH, IT IS A GROWING SPORT. UH, THIS IS NOT SOMETHING THAT FIVE YEARS AGO WAS REALLY WELL KNOWN. UM, AND IT'S AN AFFORDABLE SPORT. YOU KNOW, I WALK AROUND WITH A BAG, THEN I'VE GOT 13 DISCS IN THAT ALLOWS ME TO BE ABLE TO, UH, YOU KNOW, MAKE A DISC SELECTION. THEIR COURSE IS A VERY TECHNICAL COURSE. YOU HAVE TO KNOW WHICH DISC YOU'RE GOING TO THROW IN ORDER TO PLAY IT. YOU KNOW, IT'S NOT LIKE YOU'RE JUST GONNA GO OUT THERE WITH THREE DISCS AND BE ABLE TO GET ALL OF THE SHOT SHAPES THAT YOU NEED TO GET. UH, SO THIS IS A TRULY A GEM AND IT WOULD BE A SHAME NOT TO BE ABLE TO HAVE IT HERE. THANK YOU. THANK YOU. PLEASE RAISE YOUR RIGHT HAND. DO YOU SWEAR OR AFFIRM AND TELL THE TRUTH, NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH, SO HELP YOU GOD. SO PLEASE STATE YOUR NAME AND SPELL YOUR LAST FOR THE RECORD. MY NAME IS LUCIA MOORE. AND YOUR ADDRESS? 2 0 6 LAKE BOULEVARD PINE, NEW JERSEY. TAKE IT AWAY. UM, HI EVERYONE. THANK YOU FOR HEARING ME ABOUT THIS. I JUST WANT, THANKFULLY YOU GUYS ARE AMAZING. UM, HERE TO SUPPORT THE COURSE. I THINK BASICALLY THERE, IT'S A TWO ASSET ME FOR MANY REASONS. NOT ONLY FOR JUST PROVIDING THE OPPORTUNITY TO HAVE A HEALTHY SUPPORT IN THE DEPARTMENT, BUT ALSO FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF I, FROM A BUSINESS PERSPECTIVE, I'M THE EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF THE BUSINESS ASSOCIATION. [02:45:01] I ALSO SERVE ON BOARD FROM MAIN STREET MERCHANTS OF HISTORIC ME. SO ONE OF THE ASPECTS THAT I THINK ABOUT TOO, IN ADDITION TO HAVING A WONDERFUL PLACE TO GO AND PLAY, I ALSO THINK ABOUT THE EFFECT ON BUSINESS WHERE THE LOCAL RESTAURANT, THE VILLAGE PORCH, WILL HAVE PEOPLE WANT GO AND HAVE A, THEY WOULD GO DOWNTOWN. SO THERE'S ALSO AN ECONOMIC POSITIVE ASPECT OF HAVING WORKERS HERE. UM, AND I GUESS BETWEEN THAT AND THE FACT THAT EVERY TIME I'M THERE, I THINK THERE'S AN OPPORTUNITY FOR ME. I WORK, UH, WEAR A LOT OF HATS IN THIS TOWN. I ALSO DO, I'M THE CHAIR FOR OCTOBER FEST, AND RIGHT NOW I'M THE EVENT MANAGER FOR DICKENS FESTIVAL. SO I AM LIKE EVERYWHERE AND IT GIVES ME THE OPPORTUNITY TO JUST GO AND DECOMPRESS BEAUTIFUL ENVIRONMENT AND, AND DEFINITELY AS PLAYING ON THE COURSE FOR THE AMOUNT OF TIME THAT WE CAN ON COURSE WE HELPED OUT. SO IT'S JUST A WONDERFUL PLACE AND I, I HOPE THAT SHOULD BE SO THANK YOU. THANK YOU. I, BEFORE YOU BEGIN, YES MA'AM. PLEASE RAISE YOUR RIGHT HAND. DO YOU SWEAR OR AFFIRM, TELL THE TRUTH, NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH, SO HELP YOU GOD? YES. PLEASE STATE YOUR NAME AND SPELL YOUR LAST FOR THE RECORD. JANE CURCIO. C-U-R-C-I-O-C. LIVE ACROSS C-U-R-C-I-O? YES. THANK YOU. I LIVE DIRECTLY ACROSS THE STREET FROM AND YOUR ADDRESS, OKAY, SO CORRECT ME IF I'M WRONG, SORRY, SORRY. YOUR ADDRESS. ADDRESS 13 HARFORD ROAD. YOU, YOU CORRECT ME IF I'M WRONG, ISN'T FREEDOM PARK AVAILABLE FOR THESE KIND OF EVENTS? NO, THE, WELL IT'S, EVEN IF IT WAS, THAT'S IRRELEVANT FOR THE BOARD'S CONSIDERATION BECAUSE IT'S A USE VARIANCE FOR THIS RECREATIONAL USE TO BE, TO HAPPEN AT THIS PROPERTY. YEAH, I DON'T FEEL LIKE THIS SHOULD BE IN MY NEIGHBORHOOD RIGHT ACROSS THE STREET FROM MY HOUSE. SHE'S TALKING ABOUT LADY, THEY PLAY IN THE FRONT YARD. I DON'T WANT LADY IN MY YARD. YOU KNOW, THEY PLAY SOMETIMES TILL 10 O'CLOCK AT NIGHT. THEY PLAY IN THE RAIN. I MEAN, I DON'T KNOW WHAT THEIR HOURS ARE, BUT YOU KNOW, I DO LIVE ACROSS THE STREET FROM, AND I THINK THE TRAFFIC ON HARFORD ROAD STILL BAD BECAUSE I'VE BEEN THERE 23 YEARS. 23 YEARS AGO THE TRAFFIC WAS NOT BAD. NOW IT'S HORRIBLE. OKAY, HORRIBLE. YOU WERE, YOU KNOW, YOU'RE PUTTING NEW HOUSES IN EVERYWHERE, RIGHT AROUND THE CORNER FROM ME EVERYWHERE. AND NOW YOU'RE GONNA HAVE THIS MORE TRAFFIC. IT'S NOT RESIDENTIAL ANYMORE. IT'S LIKE I LIVE IN A BUSY CITY. CORRECT? LIKE I DON'T LIVE IN THE WOODS. I DON'T FEEL LIKE I LIVE IN THE WOODS ANYMORE. YOU KNOW, I HEAR PEOPLE OUT MY WINDOW TALKING AT 10 O'CLOCK AT NIGHT SOMETIMES. 'CAUSE MY OFFICE IS IN THE FRONT OF THE HOUSE AND IF I'M SITTING IN THE OFFICE AND MY WINDOWS IS ANYTHING, THERE'S, THEY'RE LIKE, WHO'S OUT THERE? IT'S THE FRI PEOPLE. IT'S LIKE, I DUNNO, I JUST DON'T FEEL LIKE I, WHERE I LIVED 23 YEARS AGO, I FEEL LIKE IT'S THE CITY AND IT'S GETTING WORSE. AND IF THIS IS A WHALE, IT'S GETTING WORSE. WE TO STOP BUILDING. BUT THAT'S NOT GONNA HAPPEN BECAUSE, AND REDEVELOPMENT AND ALL THAT, THAT'S NOT HAPPEN. BUT I DON'T FEEL LIKE I'M MAKING EFFORT ANYMORE. I REALLY DON'T. AND NOW PEOPLE HAVE THIS, I'M GONNA LIVE ACROSS THE STREET FROM A WEIGHT UP AREA AT NIGHT BECAUSE THEY'RE OUT THERE PLAYING. THEY CAN RUN OUT THE PARK AND DO THEIR EVENTS. THAT'S WHAT THE PARK IS FOR, ISN'T IT? FREEDOM PARK HEALTH EVENTS. AGAIN, AT THE END OF THE DAY, IT'S IRRELEVANT TERMS OF THIS APPLICATION BECAUSE THIS IS A USE VARIANCE FOR THIS USE TO OCCUR ON THIS SUBJECT PROPERTY. SO WHETHER THEY CAN PLAY IN TOMS RIVER, FREEDOM PARK FOR RIVER RUTGERS, DOESN'T MATTER. I FEEL LIKE YOU'RE TAKING A RESIDENTIAL AREA AND MAKING IT ALL DOWNHILL. ROAD IS CLOSED. WHEN'S THAT GONNA BE FIXED? MY ROAD IS LIKE A RACETRACK NOW. I LIVE ON A RACE TRACK, SO YOU'RE GONNA MAKE IT WORSE. THAT'S ALL I HAVE TO SAY. THANK YOU SIR. PLEASE RAISE YOUR RIGHT HAND. DO YOU SWEAR? WHEN YOU'RE READY, DO YOU SWEAR OR AFFIRM TO TELL THE TRUTH, NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH, SO HELP YOU GOD? YES. PLEASE STATE YOUR NAME AND SPELL YOUR LAST FOR THE RECORD. [02:50:01] MATT HALEY, H-A-L-E-Y. AND YOUR ADDRESS? 16 FALLS ROAD, MEDFORD, NEW JERSEY. TAKE IT AWAY. HELLO EVERYONE. GOOD EVENING. HI, UH, MEDFORD RESIDENT SINCE 1985. UM, MY NEIGHBORS HAVE PICKLEBALL COURTS, THEY HAVE TOURNAMENTS, THEY COLLECT DONATIONS. MY OTHER NEIGHBORS HANG OUT OUT FRONT WITH FIRE PITS AND GOLF CARTS THAT PARK IN THE STREET JUST SAYING. UM, BUT I'M A DISC GOLFER FOR 25 YEARS AND I STILL CAN'T BEAT THE GUY, BUT I, UM, SO DISC GOLF, I DON'T KNOW IF YOU GUYS KNOW, BUT IT WAS, UM, MADE POPLAR IN AN EPISODE OF SEINFELD. ANYONE SEE THAT? IT'S GOLF WITH A FRISBEE. NO, . ALRIGHT, WELL I'LL COME BACK TO THAT IN A LITTLE BIT. GEORGE STANDS AT THE SUMMER OF GEORGE. NO, CRAZY. THE GOLF EPISODE. IT'S THE DISC GOLF EPISODE. CENTRAL PARK. YEAH, WHAT I'M WATCHING TONIGHT. ALRIGHT, SO ANYWAY, 1985 I ATTENDED KOREAN MARY PINES. I GOTTA GIVE A LITTLE HISTORY HERE. MEDFORD, YOU GUYS ALL MEDFORD, WE HAVE TO BE. YEAH, I I ACTUALLY WANNA GET ON THE BOARDS. WE'LL TALK ABOUT THAT LATER. . YOU GUYS ARE KILLING ME, DUDE. UM, ANYWAY, SO CRANBERRY PINES, MEDFORD MEMORIAL. SO DID ANYONE GO TO MEDFORD MEMORIAL? TOOK CANDY. DID YOU PLAY FRISBEE GOLF IN JIM JUST RETIRED THREE YEARS AGO, DIDN'T HE? OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT. YEAH, YEAH. AND HE WAS AT AND HE WAS . SO ANYWAY, UH, MEDFORD MEMORIAL THEN SHAWNEE HIGH SCHOOL IN 1996, I GRADUATED. UM, I WENT TO COLLEGE IN ARLINGTON, VIRGINIA. SO THIS IS WHEN I WAS INTRODUCED BESIDES CHIP CANDY, YOU KNOW, THROWING FRISBEES OUTTA HULA HOOP, I MEAN DOWN IN ARLINGTON, VIRGINIA IN 2000. AND I GET INTRODUCED TO PROPER DISC GOLF, YOU KNOW, THE DISC, GOLF CATCHERS, THE JELLYFISH AND CHAINS, THE CERTAIN DISC THAT YOU THROW. UM, SO ANYWAY, I GRADUATE IN 2000. I COME BACK TO MEDFORD. I SWORE I WASN'T GONNA COME BACK TO MEDFORD, I'M STILL HERE. UM, SO ANYWAY, I'M PLAYING DISC OFF. THE CLOSEST COURSE IS, UH, FAIRMOUNT PARK. THEY MENTIONED SEDLEY WOODS. SO FROM 2000 ON, I'M DRIVING AN HOUR TO PLAY THIS GOLF, RIGHT? AND IT'S REALLY A WALK IN THE WOODS. UM, IN 2005, AN EAGLE SCOUT HAD FOUR HOLES AT FREEDOM PARK. HAS ANYONE PLAYED FREEDOM PARK? HERE AT OUR DISC GOLFER IS, IT'S ACTUALLY I COULD DO A SAFETY ASSESSMENT FREE OF CHARGE. UM, BECAUSE HOW THE COURSE IS SET UP IS ONLY FOUR HOLES, BUT THERE'S SOME SERIOUS SAFETY CONCERNS. AND THE NUMBER ONE IS THE PEDESTRIANS WALKING TO THE DOG PARK. UM, THEY GO RIGHT THROUGH ONE OR TWO OF THE HOLES. THERE'S ONLY FOUR HOLES, 12 TOTAL 'EM. UM, I ACTUALLY HAVE SEEN PEOPLE LEAVING THE, UH, DOG PARK WITH BAGS OF POOP AND THEY HANG THEM IN THE CHAINS 'CAUSE NO ONE KNOWS WHAT THEY'RE FOR. ALL RIGHT, SO 2012 GO HE NEW JERSEY. YOU LOOK THAT UP. THAT IS AN UNBELIEVABLE COURSE, BUT A HUGE HISTORY. UM, SO HAVING A COURSE LIKE WHI WOODS NEARBY IS A BLESSING. I LOOKED THIS UP BEFORE THE MEETING, I DIDN'T KNOW THIS. DOES ANYONE KNOW HOW MANY RESIDENTS ARE IN MEDFORD? 2024. FIVE. BUT YOU'RE GOOD. HOW MANY ARE OFFERING USED TO THEIR PRIVATE LAND TO PLAY DISC GOLF? ONE. ALL RIGHT. AND BY MR. UH, WHITAKER OFFERING THIS, NOT ONLY IS THE BEAUTY OF HIS LAND, BUT THERE'S NO FENCES, NO TREE REMOVAL, NO PAINT, NO INTERFERENCE WITH PUBLIC DOG PARKS. THE ONLY LIGHTS ARE GLOW STICKS. ARE WE TALKING ABOUT GLOW STICKS? RIGHT? I DUNNO. SINCE THE WINTERS MOVED IN, DOES ANYONE REMEMBER WHAT THIS HOUSE LOOKED LIKE BEFORE THEY MOVED IN? YES. YEAH. WOO. SO THEY'VE ENHANCED THE PROPERTY AND ENCLOS SIMILAR TO TRADITIONAL GOLF. THIS GOLF TEACHES SPORTSMANSHIP ACCOUNTABILITY ALL WHILE PROVIDING, PROVIDING AN ALTERNATE OUTDOOR ACTIVITY FOR KIDS OF ALL AGES, MEN AND WOMEN TAKING THEM AWAY FROM SCREEN TIME OR THE E-BIKES. MEDFORD TOWNSHIP SHOULD BE GRATEFUL FOR A RESIDENT OF THEIRS OFFERING SUCH SURFACES AND THEIR LAND. MR. WHITAKER IS WILLING TO WORK WITH YOU AS HE'S SHOWN, [02:55:02] AND THIS INCLUDES THE OVERALL GROWTH OF THE COMMUNITY. THANK YOU. THANK YOU. DO YOU SWEAR OR AFFIRM TO TELL THE TRUTH, NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH, SO HELP YOU GOD? I DO. PLEASE STATE YOUR NAME AND SPELL YOUR LAST FOR THE RECORD. MY NAME IS LEO MATI, M-A-Z-Z-O-C-H-E-T-T-E. AND YOUR ADDRESS? UH, THREE GEORGIA TRAIL. THANK YOU. TAKE AWAY, SORRY. THREE. GEORGIA TRAIL IS DIRECTLY AT THE END OF HARTFORD ROAD. NEIGHBORS WITH MR. WHITAKER HERE. UM, I'VE LIVED THERE MY, ALMOST MY ENTIRE LIFE. I'M 33. I'VE LIVED THERE FOR SINCE 96. SO , UM, I JUST WANT TO KIND OF REEL EVERYTHING BACK IN HERE. I DON'T THINK WE'RE SPEAKING TO, I'VE PLAYED DISC GOLF IN VOORHEES. I'VE PLAYED DISC GOLF IN THE FAIRMOUNT PARK TO GRAND BEAUTIFUL GAME. I DON'T THINK WE'RE HERE TO SPEAK TO, UH, THE ENJOYMENT THAT PEOPLE GET FROM PLAYING DISC GOLF. I THINK WHAT WE'RE HERE TO SPEAK TO IS WHAT THEY'RE GONNA BE USING THIS RESIDENTIAL LAND FOR AND THE IMPACT THAT THAT'S GONNA HAVE. I PASS THIS PROPERTY MULTIPLE TIMES A DAY, EVERY DAY ON MY BIKE PASSES SOMETIMES ON THE GYM. THERE IS A SIGNIFICANT INCREASE IN PEOPLE THERE SINCE THIS HAS STARTED YEARS AGO WHEN THIS STARTED. UH, I'M NOT HERE TO RAIN ON ANYBODY'S PARADE AND BRING ANYBODY YOU GET IN THE WAY OF ANYBODY HAVING FUN OUTDOORS IN MEDFORD. I THINK THAT'S A BEAUTIFUL THING. BUT THERE ARE PLACES WHERE IT CAN BE DONE SAFELY AND APPROPRIATELY, NOT IN PEOPLE'S NEIGHBORHOODS. THERE ARE PLACES THAT ARE ZONED FOR THIS AND I THINK THAT'S WHAT THE GOAL OF THIS MEETING TO IS, RIGHT? TO DETERMINE WHERE THOSE AREAS ARE AND WHERE THEY'RE NOT. AND RIGHT NOW, THIS IS NOT AN AREA FOR THAT. I UNDERSTAND THAT THAT'S WHAT WE'RE TRYING TO DO, BUT IT, THAT'S NOT WHAT IT'S ZONED FOR NOW. AND SO I'M SURE IT'S A BEAUTIFUL TIME OUT THERE, BUT THE, THE POINT OF THIS WHOLE THING IS THAT ISN'T BEING USED THE WAY IT'S SUPPOSED TO BE USED, WHICH IS RESIDENTIAL. AND I DON'T THINK IT'S BEING USED FOR THAT. AND I THINK IT SHOULD CONTINUE TO BE USED RESIDENTIAL PERSONALLY. UM, SO, UH, IF, IF THAT'S WHAT WE'RE TRYING TO FIGURE OUT, YOU KNOW, I, I THINK THAT'S WHAT WE SHOULD STICK TO, NOT TO UM, HOW MUCH FUN EVERYBODY HAS OUTSIDE OF THE WOODS IN MEDFORD. IT'S A BEAUTIFUL TOWN. OF COURSE YOU HAVE FUN OUTSIDE, BUT THERE'S RESIDENTIAL AREAS AND THERE'S COMMERCIAL AREAS. THIS ONE IS RESIDENTIAL AND SO I THINK WE SHOULD JUST KEEP THAT IN MIND GOING FORWARD. THANK YOU. DO YOU SWEAR OR AFFIRM TO TELL THE TRUTH AND NOTHING BUT THE TRUTHS TO HELP YOU? GOD, I DO. PLEASE STATE YOUR NAME VERY LAST FOR THE RECORD. MY NAME IS JESSICA MOORE, M-O-O-R-E. AND YOUR ADDRESS? TWO GEORGIA TRAIL, TEDFORD, NEW JERSEY. TAKE IT AWAY. UM, SO I'M NOT GOING TO KIND OF REITERATE ALL THE POINTS MADE AS OF YET. UM, I'D LIKE TO ECHO A LOT OF THE COMMENTS OF MR. I'VE SPOKEN BEFORE ME. UM, BUT I'D JUST LIKE TO HIGHLIGHT I THINK THE SHEER NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE COME TO KIND OF SHOW THEIR SUPPORT FOR THIS, UM, COURSE HERE TONIGHT. JUST KIND OF HIGHLIGHTS THE POPULARITY AND KIND OF THE SCOPE, UH, THAT THIS PROPERTY IS KIND OF ALREADY BEING USED FOR, UM, EVEN PEOPLE KIND OF TRAVELING IN TO COME TO THIS COURSE. AND IN TERMS OF THINGS LIKE CREEP, I THINK THIS IS A REAL CONCERN, UM, THAT KIND OF BRINGS ALONG AND KIND OF HIGHLIGHTS, UM, HOW THIS PROPERTY IS REALLY KIND OF BEING USED IN KIND OF A MUCH MORE PUBLIC OR COMMERCIAL TYPE WAY. UM, AND HAS THE POTENTIAL TO CONTINUE BASED ON WHATSOEVER ALREADY. THANK YOU. PLEASE RAISE YOUR RIGHT HAND. DO YOU SWEAR OR AFFIRM TO TELL THE TRUTH, NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH, SO HELP YOU GOD? I DO. PLEASE STATE YOUR NAMES VERY LAST FOR THE RECORD. MY NAME IS KATHLEEN MOORE. M-O-O-R-E. EXHIBIT AT TWO GEORGIA TRAIL. TAKE IT AWAY. OKAY, WE DO HAVE SOME PHOTOGRAPHS TO SHARE. WE'RE GONNA MARK THAT EXHIBIT AS OH ONE. UM, THIS SHOWS, THIS IS A ROAD TAKEN FROM HARFORD ROAD OF PEOPLE AT THE STREET. THIS IS ALSO TAKEN A DOG HANGING OUT OF THE CAR FROM HARFORD ROAD GOING 40 MILES AN HOUR DOWN THE ROAD WITH PEOPLE MA STANDING OUT THE STREET. THANK YOU. WHERE THERE IS A HE JUST WANNA MAKE SURE HE COULD ALSO SEE IT TOO. ALSO, ARE WE, I COULDN'T GET ANY PICTURES. CAPTURING [03:00:01] HER ON THE MIC IS WHERE THE HOLE IS. I DON'T KNOW THE STREET. ONE SECOND MA'AM. JUST BEFORE YOU CONTINUE, ARE WE CATCHING UP WITH HER OR DO WE NEED TO CARRY THE MIC? CAN YOU STAND UP THERE AND JUST MAKE SURE YOU'RE SPEAKING TO THE MICROPHONE? SURE. I'M GONNA DESCRIBE SOME OF THE OTHER PHOTOS. UM, BONFIRES AS YOU MENTIONED, COSTS I THINK HAVE BEEN BROUGHT UP AND NOT BEEN HONESTLY DISCUSSED. THERE ARE MEMBERSHIP FEES, GIFT CERTIFICATES AVAILABLE, PLAYING FEES. I DON'T KNOW IF THERE'S BETTING GOING ON. AND THERE'S ANOTHER BUSINESS THAT'S BEING CARRIED OUT AT THE PROPERTY AS WELL WITH NO PERMITS THAT ALSO HAS BONFIRES AND OPERATES AT NIGHT. THANK YOU. AND I HAVE ALL THIS INFORMATION HIGHLIGHTING AND CIRCLING THE DATES. UM, THIS IS GOING BACK TO 2022 AND MY QUESTION IS, WHY HAS IT BEEN OPERATING AND ALLOWED TO OPERATE WITHOUT PERMITS OR WITHOUT THE ZONING COMPLIANCE FOR THIS LOAN? UM, I DUNNO WHERE I PUT THIS, BUT CAN, YOU CAN SHARE, I'M CURIOUS TO SEE WHAT IT SAYS. THANK YOU. MM-HMM . UM, SO I RESIDE AT TWO GEORGIA TRAIL CORNER PARK ROAD, LIVED IN MY HOME FOR 30 YEARS, PAYING TAXES AND RAISE OUR FAMILY HERE. WE LOVE OUR HOME, OUR NEIGHBORHOOD, AND OUR TOWN. OUR HOME IS ACROSS THE STREET FROM METHOD MEDFORD METHODIST CHURCH, THE BB RESIDENCE AND WHI WHITAKER WOODS DISC GOLF COURSE. I AM OPPOSED TO THE DEVELOPMENT OF A HARTFORD ROAD INTO A DOCK DISC GOLF COURSE FOR HOBBY PURPOSES OR FOR ANY OTHER PURPOSES. HOWEVER, I NOTE THAT THE COURSE HAS BEEN UP AND RUNNING SINCE 2022. AS YOU CAN SEE WITH THE SOCIAL MEDIA POSTS, THEY HAVE BASKETS, GREENS, TEE BOXES IN PLACE AT THE SITE. IN THE APPLICATION LETTER, IT NOTES THAT THE OPERATOR ON WEEKDAYS ANTICIPATES ONE TO TWO GROUPS PLAYING ROUNDS OF GOLF WITH PARKING IN THEIR DRIVEWAY. YOU CAN ALSO SEE ON THERE THAT THERE'S ALREADY PARKING IN THE CHURCH LOT ON THE GRAVEL WITH THE CARS THERE ACROSS THE STREET FROM ME, UM, ON WEEKEND. OKAY. THEY REQUEST PERMISSION TO HOLD FOUR TO TOURNAMENTS PER CALENDAR YEAR AND WILL AGREE TO LIMIT THE NUMBER OF TOURNAMENTS AS A CONDITION OF APPROVAL. NO MORE THAN 54 TOTAL PLAYERS PROMISED THREE FOR 18 HOLES. I NOTE THEY HAVE ADVERTISED 18, 19, AND 20 HOLES ON DIFFERENT SITES. SO WHICH IS IT AND WHAT'S THE NUMBER OF PLAYERS? DON'T THINK THERE'S A WAY TO CONTROL IT UP FOR MONITORING. UM, WHAT IS THE DURATION OF THE TOURNAMENTS? WHAT ABOUT ALCOHOL USAGE? FOOD PROVIDED, WHERE WILL THEY USE RESTROOM? WASH THEIR HANDS, PUT TRASH. WILL IT INVOLVE LATE NIGHT BONFIRES AND OVERNIGHT CAMPING? THERE HAVE BEEN CAMPERS ON THE SITE. PARKING IS A, THE WRITTEN AGREEMENT WITH THE NEIGHBORS. AND ARE THESE NEIGHBORS REQUIRED TO HOLD LIABILITY INSURANCE IN THE EVENT THAT A CAR ACCIDENT OR INJURY A PERSON TAKES PLACE ON THE PROPERTY? WHAT SITE IMPROVEMENTS ARE NEEDED TO CONTINUE THIS USE PAST DRIVEWAYS, LIGHTING AND OTHER SITE PLANS? AND IT SOUNDS LIKE THERE ARE NOT. UH, AND THE WOODS ARE VERY DARK AND THEY WANDER AROUND THAT THERE. UM, THIS IS A GROWING BUSINESS AND I'VE WATCHED CROWDS GROW SIGNIFICANTLY OVER THE PAST SUMMER AND FALL. VISITORS. DOGS ARE ALLOWED AT THIS COURSE PER THEIR WEBSITE AND THE ANIMALS ARE THE ANIMALS BEING SCREENED FOR ANY DISEASES. AGGRESSION ARE UNLEASHED. THEIR WEBSITE ALSO STATES THAT QUOTE, DRINKING WATER IS AVAILABLE IF WE'RE HOME AND WE CAN FILL YOUR BOTTLES. END QUOTE, END QUOTE, RESTROOM IS AVAILABLE IF WE'RE HOME. YOU CAN USE THE RESTROOMS. END QUOTE. IF THEY ARE HOME, WHY WOULD THERE BE PATRONS IF THE OWNERS ARE NOT HOME? I AM NOT A PROPONENT OF PERMANENT PORTA POTTIES IN MY NEIGHBORHOOD. AND ARE THERE HEALTH CODES BEING FOLLOWED FOR THE WATER HOME AND BATHROOMS? WHAT IS REQUIRED FOR CURRENT HEALTH STANDARDS? I AM NOT CONFIDENT THIS APPLICANT WILL FOLLOW ANY OF THESE RULES AS THE BUSINESS THEY'RE APPLYING FOR IS ALREADY LARGER THAN DESCRIBED IN THE APPLICATION. THEY HAVE BEEN OPERATING AT LEAST TWO BUSINESSES WITHOUT PERMITS FOR SEVERAL YEARS, INCLUDING EVENING FRISBEE, PLANE AND BONFIRES. WHO WILL BE MONITORING THEIR ACTIVITY? WILL IT BE ME? WILL IT BE THE TOWNSHIP? CLEARLY NO ONE HAS BEEN PAYING ATTENTION TO THESE BUSINESSES AS THEY CONTINUE TO RUN DAILY. THE OTHER BUSINESS THAT I HAVE IS GROUPS OF PEOPLE GATHERING FOR BONFIRES, MOON RITUALS, CRYSTAL AND MEDITATION MEETINGS [03:05:01] IN THE EVENINGS AND OVERNIGHT WITH ENORMOUS BONFIRES. I ALSO QUESTION ABOUT THE NONPROFIT AS YOU CAN SEE ALL THE DIFFERENT FEES THAT THEY'RE CHARGING. UH, I DON'T THINK WHEN THEY WERE UP HERE THAT THEY WERE TELLING THE TRUTH THAT THEY WERE, BUT THAT'S JUST MY OPINION. UH, ACCESS TO THE REAR OF THEIR PROPERTY AND THE FIRE PIT AND BONFIRES IS OF UTMOST CONCERN WITH BONFIRES ADVERTISED FOR AT LEAST TWO NIGHTS A WEEK. I ALSO QUESTIONED THE NEED FOR AND MANAGEMENT OF PORTABLE TOILETS, THE BONFIRES AND WATER SOURCES. I'M VERY CONCERNED ABOUT THE OVERALL SAFETY OF OUR NEIGHBORHOOD AND THE PATRONS AND THE HOMES. IS THERE A PROTOCOL IN PLACE FOR EXTINGUISHING FIRES ON THE PROPERTY? I DON'T KNOW THAT THERE'S ANYWHERE OUT TO THE BONFIRE FIRE AREA. ARE THEY UP TO FIRE CODE? THERE HAVE BEEN NUMEROUS WILDFIRES IN BURLINGTON COUNTY IN THE PAST SEVERAL YEARS, AS WE ALL KNOW, INCLUDING WHARTON STATE FOREST. AND THIS IS A REAL CONCERN WITH NO WATER OUT TO THE BONFIRE AREA AND ESCAPE PLANS OR WHATEVER THEY NEED TO HAVE IN PLACE FOR THIS ACTIVITY. WAS THERE A BONIFIED TRAFFIC STUDY CONDUCTED? NOT JUST GUESSING. HOW MANY PEOPLE WILL CARPOOL AND ARRIVE AND PARK AT THE PROPERTY? NOBODY KNOWS. I HAVE PHOTOS, NUMEROUS PHOTOS, VIDEOS OF PEOPLE PLAYING IN THEIR FRONT YARD AT THE STREET AND I KNOW THAT THEY AS WELL GO BACK TO THE BACK OF THE PROPERTY. I HAVE NOTICED AN UPTICK IN TRAFFIC AND CROWD VOLUME AT THE PROPERTY AND WE CAN HEAR PARTICIPANTS FROM OUR HOME. THEY'RE PLAYING IN THEIR FRONT YARD. SETBACKS DO NOT APPEAR TO BE FOLLOWED. THERE IS A TEEN OF BENCH VERY CLOSE TO THE STREET, WHICH MAY ALSO BE IN THE BUFFER ZONE OF THE SIDE OF THE STREET. MANY TRAFFIC ACCIDENTS HAVE OCCURRED IN CLO CLOSE PROXIMITY TO MY HOME. AS YOU CAN IMAGINE, AT THE CORNER OF GEORGIA TRAIL AND AT THE CENTER SECTION. OVER THE YEARS, THE TRAFFIC ALONG HARTFORD ROAD HAS BEEN INCREASING WITH THE DEVELOPMENT OF THE FARMSTEAD, THE NEW TOWNHOMES ON MILL STREET, AMONG OTHER GROWTH. AND I DO NOT WISH TO INCREASE THE VOLUME OF CARS AND CROWDS AND PEOPLE WANDERING AROUND THE BEAUTIFUL IMMEDIATE AREA OF OUR NEIGHBORHOOD FROM ALL OTHER PARTS OF THE STATE AND COUNTRY. I'VE BEEN IN PROPERTY EVALUATION FOR OVER 35 YEARS, WORKING WITH VARIOUS TAX ASSESSORS IN SOUTH JERSEY, UH, WITH EXPERTISE IN TAX REEVALUATION, PROPERTY APPRAISALS AND INSURANCE VALUATIONS. THIS CHANGE IN USE OF RESIDENTIAL TO COMMERCIAL ACTIVITY NEGATIVELY IMPACTS PROPERTY VALUES, THE SURROUNDING PROPERTIES. PERHAPS SOME OF THE THIS WITH ALL THE RESPECT YOU CAN'T CONSIDER PROPERTY VALUE AND THE IMPACT ON PROPERTY VALUE. TAXES. TAXES USE OF THE PROPERTY CAN NOT TAXES. OKAY. TAXES NOT, NOT CAN'T SUB TAXES. SALE. SELLING THE HOME IT'S UNDER. IT'S THE POSITIVE AND NEGATIVE UNDER THE MEDICI THAT YOU HAVE TO CONSIDER. OKAY. PERHAPS SOME OF THE NEIGHBORS ARE AWARE OF THIS. OKAY. IF TOURNAMENTS ARE ON WEEKENDS AND THEIR ACTIVITIES ARE OF THE CHURCH, WHERE WILL THE PLAYERS PARK WHILE ALREADY SEEN THAT THEY'RE PARKING THERE? WILL THEY EXCESS PARK ON GEORGIE TRAIL? HARFORD ROAD ROAD PLAYERS ARE ALREADY PARKING ON MAR CO. WAYNE CUL-DE-SAC AND AT THE CHURCH IT'S DIFFICULT TO TURN OFF THE GEORGIE TRAIL. I'VE PERSONALLY BEEN IN AN ACCIDENT WHILE SITTING AT THE STOP SIGN GEORGIA TRAIL ON HARFORD ROAD, UH, JUST SITTING THERE WAITING FOR TRAFFIC TO SLOW DOWN AT A CAR REAR-END ME AND PUSHED ME ONTO HARTFORD ROAD INTO TRAFFIC. IT'S A DANGEROUS INTERSECTION WE'RE ADDING TO THAT. UM, AND THERE'S POTENTIAL FOR INCREASE OF THAT. UM, I HAVE NUMEROUS ADDITIONAL PHOTOS OF THE SITE, INCLUDING BONFIRE SOCIAL MEDIA POSTS, ADVERTISING AT THE COURSE OF OTHER BUSINESS GATHERINGS AND PLAYERS IN PROPERTY PLAYERS ARE IN THIS AT THE STREET IN PLAINVIEW. IN CONCLUSION, THERE ARE SEVERAL ONGOING CONCERNS AND I DO NOT SUPPORT THE PASSAGE OF THIS APPLICATION AND I REQUEST THAT IT BE DENIED. THIS APPLICATION IS MISLEADING AND NOT REFLECTIVE OF THE PRACTICES THAT ARE ALREADY OCCURRING AT THE PROPERTY. IT IS, IT GREATLY UNDERESTIMATES AND UNDER REPORTS TO THE DEGREE OF UNREGULATED COMMERCIAL ACTIVITY AND THE IMPACT ON THE NEIGHBORS AS DEMONSTRATED BY THEIR ACTION. THIS OWNER HAS NOT SHOWN ANY COMMITMENT TO FILE THE CURRENT LAWS, REGULATIONS, OR RESIDENTIAL COMPLIANCE THAT I'M AWARE OF. PLEASE CONSIDER IF YOU WOULD LIKE THESE ACTIVITIES ACROSS, ACROSS FROM YOUR HOME, INCLUDING PORTA POTTIES, CO CONCERTS, BONFIRES, DOGS AND STRANGERS WALKING AROUND. I FEEL AS A RESIDENT AND TAX PAIN CONTRIBUTED TO THIS TOWN FOR THE PAST 30 YEARS, MY VOICE SHOULD BE HEARD. THANK YOU FOR LISTENING TO MY CONCERNS. THANK YOU. PLEASE RAISE YOUR RIGHT HAND, [03:10:01] SIR. DO YOU SWEAR OR AFFIRM TELL THE TRUTH, NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH TO HELP YOU GOD? I DO. PLEASE STATE YOUR NAME AND SPELL YOUR LAST FOR THE RECORD. UH, LAUREN MAZUK THREE OH M-A-Z-Z-O-C-H-E-T-T-E. I LIVE AT THREE GEORGIA TRAIL, MEDFORD, NEW JERSEY. UM, I'VE LISTENED TO ALL THE TESTIMONY TONIGHT. LL LISTEN TO EVERYBODY'S POINT OF VIEW. I UNDERSTAND THAT PEOPLE DO LIKE RECREATION AND IT'S A WONDERFUL THING, EVERYBODY WHO WOULD ARGUE WITH THAT. UH, HOWEVER, IT IS A RESIDENTIAL AREA. THE TESTIMONY HAS GOT A LOT OF CONJECTURE. IT IS. HOW WOULD YOU ENFORCE ANY OF THESE CONDITIONS AND TERMS THAT YOU'LL BE TRYING TO PUT IN THIS USE VARIANCE? UM, IT JUST SEEMS TO BE SO UNMANAGEABLE. THE LACK OF, UH, TECHNICAL DATA REGARDING WETLANDS, BUFFERS, AND WETLANDS USE THE TRAFFIC STUDY. THERE'S JUST SO LITTLE REAL PROFESSIONAL INPUT TO THE WHOLE THING. AND I THINK IT REALLY ALSO IS PUTTING A LOT OF ONUS ON THE FACT THAT THE TOWNSHIP IS GONNA HAVE TO REQUIRE THE GARBAGE. THE TOWNSHIP IS GONNA HAVE TO MAKE SURE THAT THE TRAFFIC FLOWS CORRECTLY. IT JUST FOR A, FOR, FOR A, AN, AN INDIVIDUAL AS A RESIDENT TO IMPOSE THAT KIND OF, UH, IMPOSITION ON THE REST OF THE TOWN WITHOUT, WITH BASICALLY GIVING NOTHING BACK. RIGHT. THEY'RE, THEY'RE NOT GOING TO, IT'S NOT LIKE A COMMERCIAL ENTITY THAT'S PAYING HIGHER TAXES. THAT'S, IT'S PICKING UP THE SLACK WHERE, WHERE THAT MAKES OFF. UM, IT JUST DOESN'T SEEM LIKE HOW ANY OF THIS COULD EVER CONNECT AND MAKE SENSE. IN MY OPINION, AS I'M A CONTRACTOR, I FOLLOW RULES. WE ALL HAVE PLANS. THERE'S A LOT OF PLANNING THAT GOES INTO ANY KIND OF THING LIKE THIS. EVEN BUILDING A HOUSE ON THE PROPERTY, AS YOU SAW WITH SOME OF THE OTHER CASES TONIGHT, UH, TO JUST ARBITRARILY GRANT SOMETHING LIKE THIS TO ME SEEMS, YOU KNOW, WHAT'S THE NEXT GUY ON THE OTHER BLOCK THAT HE WANTS TO DO A SIMILAR THING? UH, I WANT A HORSESHOE CLUB IN MY YARD. YOU KNOW, WHERE, WHERE DO YOU, HOW DO YOU RESIDENTIAL USE IS RESIDENTIAL USE. AND THE FACT THAT GRANT SOMEBODY A VARIANCE MEANS GENERALLY THERE SHOULD BE SOME KIND OF HARDSHIP OR SOME KIND OF SOMETHING. EVEN YOU SAY THERE'S GONNA BE A BENEFIT TO THE TALENT, BUT TO THE BENEFIT OF THE TOWN TO, TO WHAT THE TOWN'S GONNA HAVE TO ENDURE TO MAKE THIS ALL HAPPEN. AND THIS IS JUST THE VERY BEGINNING. THIS IS JUST DAY ONE. HOW ARE WE EVER GOING TO KNOW HOW IT'S ALL GONNA PLAY OUT A YEAR, TWO YEARS TO FIVE YEARS, 10 YEARS? THE FUTURE IS, NOBODY KNOWS. AND NONE OF US COULD SIT HERE AND SAY, OH, I'M NOT GONNA DO THAT I'S NEVER GONNA HAPPEN. THAT'S NEVER GONNA HAPPEN. IT'S GOING TO BE LIMITED. IT, IT, IT'S HOW DO YOU ENFORCE THAT? THE ENFORCEMENT TO ME IS PROBABLY THE, THE BIGGEST QUESTION. AND, AND IT'S NOT WORTH THE, THE, YOU KNOW, A TRIAL AND ERROR THING. ONCE IT'S IN ITS PLACE. I DUNNO HOW YOU WOULD DIAL IT ALL BACK. AND THAT'S PRETTY MUCH HOW I FEEL ABOUT IT. THANK YOU. THANKS. DO YOU SWEAR OR AFFIRM TELL THE TRUTH, NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH TO HELP YOU, GOD, I DO. AND YOU STATE YOUR NAME AGAIN. PAUL ANG 62 MILL STREET. AND YOU'RE AT ASFORD, NEW JERSEY. BUT HOW DO YOU SPELL YOUR LAST NAME LIKE MUSTANG? TAKE IT AWAY LOT. 9 0 8 LOT 1303. OKAY. I LIVE BASICALLY ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE BACK CREEK THERE. UM, BELIEVE IT OR NOT, THERE IS ANOTHER PROPERTY THAT IS QUITE A BIT BETWEEN ME AND THAT PROPERTY, THE PAPER PROPERTY, UM, BY MY NEIGHBOR NEXT DOOR WHO ACTUALLY OWNS THE PART BACK THERE. MY FIRST, UH, TIME WITH, UH, DOFF. I HAD MOVED. I, UH, LONG STORY SHORT, MOVED TO UNFORTUNATELY THE DALLAS AREA, BUT I STILL HELD MY HOUSE IN OLD MILL STREET. MY DAUGHTER LIVED THERE, JUST WAS IN, UH, 2018. I FORGET WHAT YEAR SHE DID ME A CALL DAD. THERE'S LIKE SOMEBODY BUILT A BRIDGE ACROSS THE CREEK. I'M LIKE, WHATCHA TALKING ABOUT? SHE SAID, WELL, THEY BUILT THIS THING. SHE SAYS, I THINK THEY'RE COMING OVER TO GET THE DISKS. I SAID, OKAY. SHE SAID, I TOOK IT DOWN AND PUT A NO TPAS. I SAID, OH, THAT'S GREAT. UM, [03:15:02] I KNEW THEY WERE BACK THERE, BUT AS FAR AS, AS FAR AS THE APPLICATION HERE, THAT HORSE HAS ALREADY LEFT THE BOND. I MEAN, AS EVERYONE SAID, THIS HAS BEEN GOING ON NOW FOR QUITE A WHILE HERE. UM, ANOTHER INSTANCE, I'M DOWN THERE, I'M WALKING IN THE CREEK AND I'VE SEEN THIS. FOLKS ARE BUILDING ALL THIS INFRASTRUCTURE DOWN NEAR THE WATER. AND I YELLED TO THE GUY ACROSS THERE. I SAID, DO YOU KNOW YOU DON'T EVEN OWN THAT PROPERTY? UH, SO I WENT TO MY NEIGHBOR WHO OWNED IT AND I SAID, DUDE, YOU ARE YOU RUNNING A DISC OFF OVER THERE? A BUSINESS? HE SAYS, NO, I DON'T ANYTHING ABOUT THIS. SO, CAME TO TOWNSHIP AND I WALK AROUND THERE LOT. I SAID, YOU'VE GOT, YOU'VE GOT A A T ON THE, ON THE EASEMENT FOR THE TOWNSHIP PROPERTY THERE TO GET TO THIS, UH, MAIN SEWER LINE THERE. SO BASICALLY, I THINK THIS KIND OF STARTED THINGS GOING ON HERE WHERE, UM, YOU KNOW, WE ARE WHERE WE ARE TODAY, BUT I QUESTION WHETHER THEY KNOW WHERE THEIR BOUNDARIES ARE, WHERE THEY KNOW WHERE THEIR PROPERTY LINES ARE, WHERE THEY KNOW WHERE THE WETLANDS BUFFERS ARE, WHERE THE WE, WHERE THE WET LANDS ARE. I TOLD MY NEIGHBOR NEXT DOOR, LISTEN MAN, IF SOMETHING HAPPENS OVER HERE, I'M HOLDING YOU LIABLE. OKAY? SOMEBODY HURTS THEMSELF COMING ACROSS THE WATER AND TRIES TO SUE ME OR WHATEVER. 'CAUSE THERE'S A TREE STOP THERE OR SOMETHING. THEY TRIPPED OVER AND GOT HURT. HE SAYS, YEAH PAUL, I UNDERSTAND. SO, BUT ANYWAY, UM, THERE WAS A LOT OF INFORMATION GOING BACK AND FORTH HERE. I GUESS MY MAIN THING IS THE, UH, IS THE TOURNAMENTS, UM, TO ME, AND I KNOW YOU'RE GONNA SAY SOMETHING ABOUT THE MONIES ARE RELEVANT AND BLAH, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH. BUT IN THE GROWTH MANAGEMENT SOUTH, ARE YOU ALLOWED TO RUN A BUSINESS ON THAT TYPE OF PROPERTY? THAT'S ALL I WANT TO KNOW. OKAY. ARE YOU ALLOWED UNDER OUR CURRENT SYSTEM TO RUN A BUSINESS THERE LIKE THAT WHERE YOU CAN CHARGE, AND I DON'T CARE WHAT THEY SAY, 30 TO $50 OR $45, EXCUSE ME, PER PERSON FOR A TOURNAMENT. IS THAT A BUSINESS? IS THAT A NONPROFIT OR A NOT FOR PROFIT? THERE'S A BIG DIFFERENCE IN THAT, RIGHT? AND YOU HAVE A 5 0 1 C3 AND THINGS LIKE THAT. BUT ANYONE, LIKE, DO THEY PAY BUSINESS TAXES TO THE TOWNSHIP? I DUNNO. UM, BUT AGAIN, MY, MY MAIN DEAL IS, UH, IS TOURNAMENTS. THE REST OF THE TIME I SEE 'EM OUT THERE, IT LOOKED LIKE THEY'RE HAVING A GREAT TIME. FINE. AS LONG AS THEY RESPECT THEIR PROPERTY. MY PROPERTY, LITTLE CONCERN WITH ALL THE FIRES WE HAVE THIS YEAR TOO. UM, THE FIRST HOUSE THAT'S GONNA BURN DOWN IS MINE. 'CAUSE MY HOUSE IS IN THE WOODS. OKAY? I'M NOT OUT ON THE STREET. I'M WAY BACK. I'M WAY IN THE WOODS. I TOLD MY NEIGHBORS BEFORE WHEN THEY HAD FIRES, I SAID, PLEASE BE CAREFUL. YOUR HOUSE'S GONNA BE JUST FINE IF IT HITS THE CANOPY. MINE'S GONE. WE NOTICED WE HAD SOME FIRES HERE IN TOWN THIS PAST SUMMER, AND I'VE NEVER SEEN ANYTHING LIKE THAT. WHOLE TIME I'VE BEEN HERE AND I'VE BEEN HERE SINCE 19 EIGHT, LIVING IN TOWN. UM, LET'S SEE THE, THE HOURS OF OPERATION, THAT WAS A CONSIDERATION I HAD TOO. I MEAN, BEN TOLD ME, HE SAID PEOPLE WERE AT, I WASN'T HOME. THE METRO POLICE COME, THEY, THERE WAS SOME KIND OF NOISE COMPLAINT. THEY COME DOWN MY DRIVEWAY ALL THE WAY DOWN. THEY'RE ASKING WHERE I AM AND THINKING, WELL, WHERE'S ALL THIS NOISE COMING FROM? AND IT WAS, APPARENTLY THERE WAS A LARGE PARTY OVER THERE. SO I JUST WANNA MAKE SURE IN THE GROWTH MANAGEMENT SOUTH FOR A BUSINESS TO RUN AN EVENT, WHAT ARE THE HOURS OF OPERATION? OKAY. UM, AND THAT'S ABOUT IT. I THINK EVERYONE ELSE HAS SAID EVERYTHING HERE. UH, I HAVE NOTHING AGAINST THESE FOLKS AS FAR AS THEIR, UH, THE ACTIVITIES NOT INCLUDING, UH, LIKE THESE MAJOR EVENTS. I'M SURE FOLKS ARE HAVING A GREAT TIME OUT THERE, YOU SEE OUT THERE AT NIGHT TIME AND ALL ENJOY YOURSELF. UM, BUT ANYWAY, I THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME. THANK YOU CONSIDERATION. I PROMISE. DO YOU SWEAR OR AFFIRM AND TELL THE TRUTH, NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH, SO HELP YOU GOD, PLEASE. YES. STEPHANIE MOORE, I NEED YOU TO SAY YES. YES. THANK YOU. I, I HEARD THE HMM. BUT STATE YOUR NAME AND SPELL YOUR LAST FOR THE RECORD. STEPHANIE MOORE. P-H-M-M-O-O-R-E. AND YOUR ADDRESS? TWO GEORGE TRAIL. TAKE IT AWAY. ALL RIGHT. WELL [03:20:01] LOTS. WHAT THEY SAID IS JUST BLATANT LIES. LET'S BE REAL. THEY'RE OUT THERE ALL NIGHT. ALL NIGHT. I GO TO MY PARENTS' HOUSE, I GO TO MY HOUSE, OTHER SIDE OF 70 AND MEMBER HERE. THEY'RE OUT ALL NIGHT. YEAH, THERE'S LIGHTS THERE, THERE'S A PROBLEM. WE REALLY DON'T WANT FOOTBALL FIELD LIGHTS HERE TO ACCOMMODATE, YOU KNOW, FOR THEM PLAYING AT NIGHT. HERE AGAIN, FRISBEE SCHOOL, WHATEVER PEOPLE ARE AT THE ROAD, YOU CAN BRING YOUR STROLLERS, YOU CAN BRING YOUR KIDS, YOU CAN BRING YOUR DOGS. IT'S FREE RANGE CHICKENS HERE. PEOPLE PARK ACROSS THE STREET. I'VE HAD TO STOP NUMEROUS TIMES FOR FRISBEES IN THE ROAD AND I LOVE HOW YOU SAID IT. THIS IS HEAVIER THAN PLEASE JUST KEEP YOUR COMMENTS DIRECTED AT THE BOARD BECAUSE THEY'RE IN THE ROAD. I UNDERSTAND. I HAVEN'T SEEN IT AS IT'S BEEN CLEAR THAT, YOU KNOW, YOU CAN'T USE THE BATHROOM OR GET WATER SINCE THEY'RE NOT HOME A LOT OF THE TIME. I GUESS THEY'RE JUST NOT SEEING IT. I GUESS THEY'RE NOT SEEING THE FRISBEE'S IN THE ROAD. I'VE HAD TO STOP NUMEROUS TIMES AND THE AMOUNT OF ACCIDENTS WE'VE HAD THERE OVER THE YEARS, I GUESS THEY JUST HAVEN'T SEEN IT BECAUSE THEY HAVEN'T BEEN HERE THAT LONG. SO IT'S DANGEROUS. AND IT'S BEEN A BUSINESS. AND I DON'T UNDERSTAND BETH, BUT LIKE, WHERE WAS BETH? HOW DID SHE NOT STOP THIS? I'M JUST BEING HONEST BECAUSE IT'S BEEN A BUSINESS FOR YEARS. NOW WE'RE GOING BACKWARDS. NOW WE'RE GONNA TRY TO SAY IT'S A NONPROFIT. WHEN YOU'VE BEEN MAKING PROFIT, I WOULD LOVE TO SEE THE BOOKS. HOW MUCH HAVE THEY MADE? WHERE'S THIS MONEY GOING LIKE TO SWEEP LEAVES WAY? WHAT'S THIS MONEY ACTION FOR? IT IS A BUSINESS. IT'S BEEN THREE YEARS. IT'S DANGEROUS. SOMEONE'S GONNA GET HURT. SOMEONE'S GONNA DIE ON HARFORD ROAD. AND WHO'S IT ON? THANK YOU. PLEASE RAISE YOUR HAND. DO YOU SWEAR OR AFFIRM, TELL THE TRUTH, NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH, SO HELP YOU GOD? YES. PLEASE STATE YOUR NAME AND SPELL THE LAST FOR THE RECORD. UH, MY NAME IS KELLY WHITAKER AND I LIVE AT EIGHT HARTFORD ROAD. SO I AM PRIMARY RESIDENT. I'M ALSO A TEACHER HERE IN THE BEDFORD SCHOOL DISTRICT. SO I DO HAVE A JOB THAT IS MY BUSINESS. UM, AND I JUST WANNA SAY WE HAVE THREE KIDS. WE OFTEN HAVE A LOT OF THEY'RE FRIENDS OVER. UM, SO A LOT OF THE ACTIVITY IN THE FRONT YARD, 'CAUSE WE HAVE SOCCER NETS AND THE KIDS ARE OUT THERE. THEY'RE IN ALL THE TROPICAL SPORTS FOR MEDFORD. THEY'RE CONSTANTLY PLAYING SPORTS AND THEY'RE CONSTANTLY HAVING PLANS OVER. SO A LOT OF WHAT MAYBE PEOPLE ARE SEEING ARE OUR KIDS. WE DO HAVE A BENCH BY THE DRIVEWAY BECAUSE OUR KIDS ARE PICKED UP ON HARTFORD ROAD. LAST YEAR THE BENCH WAS PUT IN 'CAUSE THE BUS DRIVER OF THE BUS HAD TO REROUTE. AND DUE TO THAT THEY WERE PULLING ON THE OTHER SIDE OF HARPER ROAD. SO OUR KIDS HAD TO CROSS HARPER ROAD TO ACTUALLY GET ONTO THE BUS. UM, THIS IS MY HOME. MY CHILDREN ARE GROWING UP THERE. THEY ABSOLUTELY LOVE THAT THEY CAN GO OUTSIDE AND BE WITH THEIR DAD IN NATURE. THEY'RE NOT KIDS THAT ARE ON IPADS. UM, I'M NOT GONNA SAY THAT THEY DON'T GAME. THEY DO SOMETIMES. THEY'RE ON THE HONOR ROLL. THEY ABSOLUTELY LOVE. WE MOVED HERE FOR FREEDOM. WE MOVED HERE TO BE IN NATURE AND WE MOVED HERE. SO THE DAD WHO'S, YOU KNOW, A PROFESSIONAL PDGA GOLFER CAN, YOU KNOW, PRACTICE OUTSIDE ON OUR PROPERTY AND THEY CAN SAY, WHERE'S AT? AND I CAN SAY, GO OUTSIDE THE ACTIVITY OF THE DISC. GOLF IS MAINLY IT BACK IN THE WOODS. IT IS NOT OUT FRONT. LIKE I SAID, IT'S A LOT OF OUR KIDS AND THEIR FRIENDS . AND IT IS, YOU KNOW, IT'S BUSY WITH THREE KIDS. SO I JUST WANTED TO UM, LET YOU KNOW THAT IT'S BEEN A BLESSING TO BE HERE IN THIS TOWN. YOU'VE BEEN WELCOME. KIDS HAVE BEEN WELCOMED. UM, YEAH. AND WE'RE JUST REALLY HAPPY WE GET ALONG WITH ALL OF OUR NEIGHBORS. I'VE ONLY HAD ONE CONCERN, WHICH IS A PIT BULL THAT CAME ACROSS HARTFORD ROAD FROM ACTUALLY MY NEIGHBORS AT LONG POINT. AND I HAD SMALL KIDS BECAUSE IT WAS RIGHT WHEN WE MOVED IN HERE ABOUT FOUR YEARS AGO. SO THAT WAS MY ONLY CONCERN EVER WITH ANY NEIGHBOR. UM, OTHER THAN THAT I'VE EVEN MET THE NEIGHBORS THAT LIVE IN THE RED HOME THAT HAVE THE HORSES AND THEY LIVE YONDER. UM, WE HELP OUR OTHER NEIGHBORS OUT THAT WE SHARE A DRIVEWAY WITH. SO THAT'S BASICALLY IT. I JUST TO INTRODUCE MYSELF AND SAY THANK YOU ALL BECAUSE I KNOW WE'VE BEEN HERE. THANK YOU. YES, THANK YOU. DO YOU SWEAR OR AFFIRM TELL THE TRUTH AND NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH, SO HELP YOU GOD? YES. PLEASE STATE YOUR NAME AND SPELL YOUR LAST FOR THE RECORD. MY NAME IS PAUL RITTER, R-I-T-T-E-R. AND YOUR ADDRESS? MY ADDRESS IS 4 4 0 SPRING ROAD, HAMILTON, NEW JERSEY. FORMERLY 19 MINUTE TIME ROAD ACCESS. TAKE IT AWAY. UM, I JUST WANTED TO TALK ALSO AS A CHARACTER WITNESS FOR WHITAKER. THEY'RE ABSOLUTELY LOVELY PEOPLE. YES, I DO AGREE. THIS IS A, IN A RESIDENTIAL AREA WHEN IT COMES TO PLAYING GOLF IN GENERAL, YOU DO HAVE TO CALL FOR A TEE TIME. YOU DO HAVE TO DO THAT ALSO, WHEN GOING TO THIS PROPERTY TO GO INTO COURSE FOR THE CONCERNS OF HOURS OF OPERATIONS I HAVE PLAYED ON THIS COURSE PREVIOUSLY. I'VE ALSO BEEN DENIED TIMES PLAYING THERE. FAMILY WAS NOT HOME. I WAS NOT ABLE TO GO AND PLAY AND USE THE PROPERTY. UM, ALSO CONCERNS WHEN IT COMES TO FIRE SAFETY. THE FAMILY IS VERY, VERY CONCERNED WHEN IT COMES TO THAT ON THEIR PROPERTY. THEY'VE TOLD US AS GOLFERS ON THEIR PROPERTY, DO NOT SMOKE A CIGARETTE AS YOU'RE WALKING AROUND OR [03:25:01] ANYTHING BECAUSE THERE'S A DRY SPELL IN THE AREA. UM, AND ALSO WHEN IT COMES TO THAT, UH, PAYING IN FOR THAT TOURNAMENTS, AGAIN, I'M NOT AS GOOD AS THEM. SO I'M BUYING DISC WHEN I SIGN UP. IF I BUY IN FOR $40, I'M NORMALLY GETTING TWO DISCS AND THOSE ARE MY TWO DISCS THAT I GET TO PLAY WITH. SO THE BUSINESS ASPECT FOR THE COURSE, THE MONEY IS GOING BACK TOWARDS THE PLAYER. IT'S GOING INTO THE PLASTIC THAT I'M PURCHASING FOR MYSELF SO THAT I CAN PLAY THE SPORT THAT I TRULY DO ENJOY DOING. AND WHEN IT COMES TO BLOW GOLF AND EVERYTHING, I CAN SEE THE CONCERN OF NIGHT CLOSE TO HARTFORD ROAD. AGAIN. EVERYTHING IS PLAYED DEEPER INTO THE WOODS AND FOR LIGHT, I REALLY DON'T SEE ANY FORM OF LIGHT POLLUTION HAPPENING INSIDE THE AREA. THAT'S WHAT I HAVE TO SAY TODAY, THIS EVENING. THANK YOU ALL. THANK YOU. ALL RIGHT, SIR. DO YOU SWEAR OR AFFIRM TO TELL THE TRUTH, NOTHING BUT THE TRUTHS, SO HELP YOU GOD? I DO. PLEASE STATE YOUR NAME AND SPELL THE LAST FOR THE RECORD. ANDRE, A-N-D-R-E. RALPH, R-O-U-T-H 15. RAN COCA LANE. TAKE IT AWAY, BEDFORD. TAKE IT AWAY. OKAY. YEAH, THE ONE OF THE QUESTIONS THAT I HAVE IS ABOUT THE TRAFFIC ON PART. I MEAN, PEOPLE HAVE TALKED ABOUT, AND IT IS TRULY HORRIBLE. I MEAN, CARS COME DOWN THE ROAD, THEY'RE DOING 50 SOMETIMES MILES AN HOUR AND 'CAUSE IT'S LONG STRAIGHT, IT JUST GOES STRAIGHT DOWN. SO THE POINT IS, IS THAT IF YOU LOOK AT THE EGRESS POINT, HOW TO GET IN AND OUT OF THAT PROPERTY, IT'S BLOODY DANGEROUS. THERE'S THE ONE PATH WHICH IS DOWN BY THE BRIDGE, WHICH IS WHERE PEOPLE ARE GOING FASTEST USUALLY. THEN THE NEXT PLACE WHERE YOU GO IN IS ABOUT A HUNDRED YARDS UP FROM THE LEFT. AND THESE ARE THINGS WHICH ARE, THEY'RE NOT, YOU KNOW, WIDE PLACES FOR DRIVING INTO IT. GETTING OUT OF THESE ARE THINGS WHERE YOU HAVE TO ACTUALLY BE GOING QUITE SLOWLY TO MAKE A TURN IN. NOW. NOW, ON A TOURNAMENT DAY, YOU'RE GONNA HAVE, OKAY, IT'S NOT, YOU KNOW, HALF HAS GOT THOUSANDS OF CARS GOING UP AND DOWN THERE. UH, BUT YOU'RE GONNA HAVE A KIND OF A CONCENTRATION OF CARS TRYING TO MAKE THESE TWO VERY AWKWARD TURNS. AND I THINK THAT IT'S ONE OF THOSE DEALS WHERE YOU GET A POLICEMAN, YOU KNOW, ACTUALLY TWO POLICEMEN, ONE LINE SIDE FLASHING LIGHTS, MAKING THE TRAFFIC SLOW DOWN. 'CAUSE OTHERWISE YOU'RE GOING TO GET HORRIBLE BLOODY ACCIDENTS. AND, YOU KNOW, AS A, A LOVER OF A STORE, YOU ASK YOUR CLIENTS OR GETTING KILLED ON A STUPID ROAD OUTSIDE OF THE GOLF COURSE. NOW, I THINK FRISBEE GOLF SOUNDS LIKE A LOT OF FUN AS FAR AS, UM, DO ANY OF THOSE LITTLE FRISBEE THINGS END UP IN THE ROAD. THE OTHER DAY I FOUND ONE OF THESE BLOODY THINGS. AND I THOUGHT, THIS ISN'T A FRISBEE, IT'S SOME KIND OF A KID'S TOY OR ONE OF THOSE THINGS THAT YOU USE AT THE GYM FOR SLIDING ON, YOU KNOW, DOING EXERCISE. BUT IN FACT, IT WAS ONE OF THESE PUPPIES AND IT WAS IN THE ROOM. SO THE POINT IS TO SAY THAT THEY NEVER GET IN THE ROOM IS, IS NOT TRUE. AND COME DOING, YOU'RE BOUND TO GET THESE THINGS IN THE RIGHT. SO YOU'RE GONNA HAVE TO HAVE MUCH MORE THAN A 30 OR 40 FOOT BUFFER ZONE SAYING NO FRISBEES ALLOWED ANYWHERE WITHIN THIS. BUT THE THING IS, JUST MAKE A NOTE THAT YOU ARE GONNA HAVE TO HAVE SOME KIND OF TRAFFIC CONTROL. YOU MIGHT HAVE TO HAVE FLASHING LIGHTS PUT UP SAYING THE FRISBEE DAY, YOU'VE GOT FLASHING LIGHTS, WHICH SLOWS PEOPLE DOWN TO 25. THAT MIGHT DO THE TRICK. BUT THIS IS A LOT MORE INFRASTRUCTURE AND POLICE ACTIVITY THAN I'VE HEARD UP TO THIS PARTICULAR POINT. THANK YOU. YOU'RE WELCOME. SURE. NOPE, YOU'RE ALREADY SWORN IN. JUST STATE YOUR NAME FOR THE RECORD AGAIN. I JUST HAVE A NOPE, JUST STATE YOUR NAME FOR THE RECORD AGAIN. MR. MOORE. NOW CONTINUE. UM, I JUST HAVE A QUESTION ONLY BECAUSE I DO NOT KNOW. AND I THINK IN TERMS OF HARFORD GROVE, WHICH I TRAVEL VIRTUALLY ALMOST EVERY DAY. UM, 40 CARS FOUR TIMES A YEAR SOUNDS LIKE A MINUSCULE AMOUNT IN TERMS OF THE CHURCH TRAFFIC. MM-HMM . THERE'S TWO CHURCHES THERE. AND I, I JUST, I I CAN'T FATHOM THE TRAFFIC STUDY FOR A POTENTIAL OF 40 CARS. THAT'S, IF IT AMOUNTS TO THAT MUCH. AND THEN A TYPICAL TRAFFIC WHEN I GO BY, IF I SEE PLAYERS THAT ARE ON THE COURSE, IT MIGHT BE LIKE ONE OR TWO CARS THERE. AND WHEN WE'RE THERE, I THINK ONE TIME THERE [03:30:01] MIGHT HAVE BEEN MAYBE SIX OR SIX OR SEVEN CARS. SO I, I JUST DON'T PUT THAT IN PERSPECTIVE BECAUSE IT SOUNDS LIKE IT'S AN INORDINATE AMOUNT OF TRAFFIC AND I JUST DON'T UNDERSTAND HOW THAT IS. SO I JUST WANNA, IT'S NOT LIKE THERE WAS HUNDREDS AND HUNDREDS OF CARS. THANK YOU. I'VE STARTED. YES. DO WE ALL KNOW THAT? NO. NO. SO MATT HALEY, UM, DID YOU, SO HEY, I JUST WANTED TO SAY WHAT'S, 'CAUSE I AM A GOLFER, YOU KNOW, I GO OUT THERE CASUAL. I GO OUT THERE, UM, I'VE STARTED SOME, SOME GOLFERS LIKE TO WARM UP, OTHER GOLFERS DON'T. SO WE COME AND GO AT DIFFERENT TIMES, UNLIKE THE TWO CHURCHES ADJACENT WHERE EVERYONE LEAVES AT ONCE. OKAY. THANK YOU. YOU'RE WELCOME. I'VE, I'VE CLEARLY WAS BEING VERY KIND BY ALLOWING SOMEONE TO COME UP TWICE, BUT I DON'T EVERYONE HAVE TO COME UP TWICE. ARE YOU GOING TO ADD ANY NEW TESTIMONY? YES. OKAY. LIMIT STRICTLY TO NEW. OKAY. AS OUR NEIGHBOR STATED NAME. AND I NOTICED YOUR NAME. COULD YOU JUST PUT YOUR NAME? I KNOW, WE KNOW. OKAY. THERE IS INGRESS AND EGRESS PROBLEMS. IT'S NOT JUST ABOUT, MA'AM, I DON'T MEAN TO INTERRUPT, BUT I JUST NEED YOU TO PUT YOUR NAME AGAIN, JUST FOR THE RECORD. NATALIE LEE MOORE. THANK YOU. NOW CONTINUE. ANYTHING ELSE? NOPE. OKAY. UM, SO YEAH, IT'S INGRESS AND EGRESS AS HE STATED. IN AND OUT OF OUR DRIVEWAYS ON HARTFORD ROAD, IN AND OUT OF THE SIDE STREETS ON HARTFORD ROAD, GEORGIA TRAIL, RIGHT. QUICKEST LANE. THE, THE CHURCH, THE TWO DRIVEWAYS. IT'S ADDITIONAL INGRESS AND EGRESS THAT CAUSES A PROBLEM. LIKE I SAID, IT'S VERY DIFFICULT. I DON'T KNOW IF ANYBODY HERE, UH, HAS TRIED TO GET OUT OF GEORGIA TRAIL AT VISIT TIME ONTO HARTFORD ROAD, LEFT OR RIGHT. UM, IT'S VERY HARD. IT'S VERY DIFFICULT. ADD, ADD THREE OR FOUR OR FIVE MORE INGRESS AND EGRESSES TO THAT. SO YES, IT'S GONNA CAUSE ADDITIONAL TRAFFIC, TRAFFIC PROBLEMS AND POTENTIAL ACCIDENTS. THANK YOU. THANK YOU. OKAY. SAY IT, SAY IT . SEEING NO MORE COMMENTS. CAN I HAVE A MOTION TO CLOSE? MOTION SECOND. ALL IN FAVOR? AYE. . OKAY. ARE THERE ANY SPECIFIC COMMENTS THAT ANY OUR, OUR PROFESSIONALS WOULD LIKE TO ADDRESS OR CLARIFY BEFORE WE START TALKING? AND SPECIFICALLY RELATED TO THE USE VARIANCE? 'CAUSE I DON'T WANNA GET CONFUSED WITH LIKE SITE PLAN ISSUES AND I'M, I JUST WANNA MAKE SURE THAT WE'RE MAKING THE DECISION BASED OFF OF THE CRITERIA FOR USE VARIANCE. DID THE COMMENTS, PUBLIC COMMENTS ABOUT THE ACCESSES AND SO ON, THAT'S RELATED TO THE SITE PLAN, RIGHT? YEAH. BE GOOD TO HEAR THIS THOUGH. I MEAN, IF THERE HAVE BRIEF COMMENTS ABOUT THAT. CHRIS, CHRIS, CAN I ASK YOU A QUESTION? I KNOW THE RECORD'S CLOSED ON THIS, BUT THIS IS SORT OF NEW STUFF WE HEARD ABOUT EGRESS RES. WE'RE WE'RE, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT HAVING DIFFERENT POINTS OF PARKING. THE EGRESS, EGRESS TO THE CHURCH IS GOING TO BE DIFFERENT. THERE'S 20 SPACES IN THERE. YOU COULD JUST, EXCUSE ME. EXCUSE ME. MEMBERS OF THE PUBLIC, THE PUBLIC IS CLOSED. PLEASE ALLOW 'EM TO SPEAK. THERE'S A CER THERE IS A CERTAIN ALLOCATION OF CARS THAT CAN PARK IN THERE. THERE'S A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF CARS THAT CAN PARK ON WHITAKER'S PROPERTY AND THERE'S A SECOND EGRESS, WHICH IS FURTHER OUT. IT'S NOT EVEN CLOSE TO THE CHURCH. SO THERE'S A WAY TO DISPERSE SOME OF THE PARKING. THAT, THAT, THAT'S ALL I WANT TO SAY ABOUT AS FAR AS IF IT'S GONNA BE, CREATE A MAGNITUDE OF PARKING PROBLEM. AND ONLY FOUR DAYS A WEEK IS REALLY NOT JOB. RIGHT. FOUR DAYS, YEAR, YEAR. FOUR DAYS A YEAR. YES. THAT WOULD ALL BE ADDRESS. THANK YOU. I CAN'T MAKE A COMMENT. I HAVEN'T SEEN THE SHOWING PARKING. RIGHT. GOT IT. AND SO I MEAN, THE REAL CHARGE HERE AS YOU KNOW, IS WHAT ARE THE NUISANCE ISSUES THEY'VE BEEN IDENTIFIED. I THINK THE PUBLIC HAS BEEN PRETTY CLEAR ABOUT WHAT THEY PERCEIVE TO BE THE NUISANCE ISSUES AT STATE. AND WHAT, IF ANYTHING CAN BE DONE TO PLACE CONDITIONS ON THOSE NUISANCES THAT WOULD MITIGATE THEM. THAT'S THE, THAT'S THE REAL QUESTION. AND IS THE, UH, DOES THE BENEFIT TO, TO THE, TO THE TOWN OUTWEIGH THE DETRIMENTS? UM, YOU, IT'S NOT PERMITTED. IT'S A RESIDENTIAL ZONE. IT'S A RECREATIONAL USE, NOT PERMITTED PERIOD. END OF STORY. THAT'S WHY WE'RE HERE. SO REALLY IT'S UP TO YOU TO DECIDE IF THERE'S ANYTHING THAT YOU CAN DO TO MITIGATE THOSE ISSUES THAT WERE IDENTIFIED. JUST TO PIGGYBACK [03:35:01] OFF MS. TAYLOR'S COMMENTS, WITH RESPECT TO THE USE VARIANCE, THE TEST THAT YOU HAVE TO EVALUATE IS A, IS THIS PROPERLY PARTICULARLY SUITED FOR THE 18 HOLE DISC COUGH COURSE? AND IF IT'S PARTICULARLY SUITED, DOES IT ADVANCE, DOES IT SATISFY THE SPECIAL CRITERIA UNDER THE MEDIATION AND THE POSITIVE CRITERIA? DOES IT ADVANCE THE GENERAL WELFARE? DOES IT ADVANCE THE PURPOSES OF ZONING UNDER THE POSITIVE, AS BALANCED AGAINST THE NEGATIVE CRITERIA? IS THE, DOES THE POSITIVE CRITERIA SUBSTANTIALLY OUTWEIGH THE NEGATIVE CRITERIA, THE DETRIMENTAL IMPACT ON THE NEIGHBORHOOD, THE DETRIMENTAL IMPACT ON THE TOWNSHIP'S MASTER PLAN, THE DETRIMENTAL IMPACT ON THE TOWNSHIP ZONING ORDINANCES. AND YOU HAVE TO ENGAGE IN THAT BALANCING TEST BASED OFF THE TESTIMONY, BASED OFF OF THE ABILITY TO IMPOSE REASONABLE CONDITIONS TO MITIGATE THE NUISANCES. AS MS. TAYLOR HAS COMMENTED AND UNDERSTANDING THAT A LOT OF THE INGRESS AND EGRESS AND TRAFFIC ISSUES WOULD BE ADDRESSED AT THE TIME OF SITE PLAN, WHICH THIS APPLICATION IS ENTIRELY CONDITIONED UPON. SO THAT KIND OF, JUST TO HELP FRAME HOW YOU GUYS ARE GOING TO EVALUATE THIS THING. THANK YOU. AND I THINK ONE OF THE RESIDENTS DID TALK ABOUT THE DIFFICULTY IN ENFORCEMENT IF WE WERE GOING TO TRY AND IMPOSE CONDITIONS TO MITIGATE SOME OF THE NUISANCES AND WHETHER THEY'RE PRACTICAL. I MEAN, I I WASN'T SUGGESTING THAT THEY WERE, YEAH, I DON'T THINK THEY'RE, I DON'T KNOW THAT THEY SATISFY THE CRITERIA. YOU KNOW, WE OUTLINED THE CRITERIA. MM-HMM . HAVE THEY DEMONSTRATED THAT THE POSITIVE CRITERIA, A NEGATIVE CRITERIA? I I DON'T THINK THEY HAVE, THEY HAVEN'T PROFESSIONAL TESTIMONY. NOT WITH RESPECT TO LITERALLY ANYTHING. ENGINEERING, PLANNING, TRAFFIC, NOTHING. YEAH. YOU HAD SOME GOOD POINTS. WHY DON'T YOU MM-HMM . CAN I MAKE A, I REQUEST THAT THESE BE, WE ORIGINALLY ASKED FOR THE USE VARIANCE FOR THE ENTIRETY OF THE USE. COULD WE HAVE A BIFURCATED USE VARIANCE ON PERSONAL USE FOR WHITAKER AND THEIR FRIENDS AND THEN A SECOND VOTE ON COURT, WHICH I, I UNDERSTAND THE TOURNAMENTS AS NO, WE'RE ONLY HAVING ONE MOTION AS APPLIED. THE APPLICATION IS FOR AN 18 HOLE DISC GOLF COURSE AND THE CONDITION WOULD BE TO LIMIT IT TO FOUR TOURNAMENTS PER UNIT OF LAND USE BOARD. BE GRAND RELIEF. IN THE ALTERNATIVE, THEY HAVE THAT AUTHORITY. YOU DO HAVE THAT AUTHORITY. YOU'RE NOT STUCK IN BETWEEN THE RAILS OF WHAT THE APPLICATION INITIALLY REQUESTED, WHICH CAN BE MODIFIED, BUT WE'RE NOT HAVING TWO MOTIONS. IF THE BOARD IS INCLINED TO DEAL WITH THAT, ADDRESS THE MOTION AS FRAMED ONE. I, I WOULD JUST THINK IT WOULD BE AWFULLY HORRIBLE IF THIS EXCUSE EXPERIENCE GETS DENIED AND THEY HAVE TO TAKE EVERYTHING DOWN. WELL YOU SAID IT WAS EASILY TAKEN DOWN. WELL, I MEAN YOU DID. YOU THE NEIGHBORS, IF THE NEIGHBOR BRINGS THE ZONING ENFORCEMENT ACTION, IF YOU DENY THE USE EXPERIENCE, IT MAY REQUIRE EVERYTHING HAPPEN TO COME DOWN. THAT'S WHY I'M SUGGESTING THE BIFURCATION APPROACH. I DON'T THINK IT'S RELEVANT. THOUGHT WE WERE TALKING ABOUT JUST A USE VARIANCE. IT DOESN'T MEAN IT CAN'T BE THERE STILL. CORRECT. AS A PERSONAL USE. THEY JUST CAN'T USE IT FOR COMMERCIAL APPLICATION. RIGHT. IT CAN'T HAVE OTHER PEOPLE. THE CODE TALKS ABOUT ACCESSORY USES, IT TALKS ABOUT COURTS, UM, AND THINGS LIKE THAT IN THE CODE. SO IT'D BE LIKE PUTTING A TENNIS COURT IN MY BACKYARD. WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE FROM THIS TO THAT? ARGUABLY NOTHING EXCEPT TO SAY THAT. SO IT WOULD BE ACCESSORY TO THE DWELLING SO THEY WOULDN'T HAVE TO TAKE IT DOWN, IS WHAT I'M ASKING TO THE PUBLIC. YEAH. THAT'S DIFFERENT. AS SOON AS PEOPLE ENTER THE SITE AND UTILIZE THE SITE, YOU ARE NOT ASSOCIATED WITH THE DWELLING. RIGHT. SO IF THE USED VARIANCE IS DENIED, THEY WOULDN'T HAVE TO REMOVE EVERYTHING. 'CAUSE THAT'S LIKE SAYING YOU HAVE TO TAKE THE TENNIS COURT DOWN. THEY COULD STILL USE IT ON THEIR OWN PERSONAL BELONGINGS, CORRECT? OR IS THAT NOT TRUE? IT'S NOT. IT'S RECREATIONAL USES ARE PERMITTED CONDITIONALLY OR AS ACCESSORY USE OF, LACK A LOOK AND SEE EXACTLY WHAT THAT SAYS. UM, TO CLARIFY, AM I CLEAR THAT I THINK YOU CLARIFY THAT. YEAH. THAT I CAN'T MAKE A MOTION WITHOUT UNDERSTANDING THAT IF YOU MAKE THAT A FINDING IN YOUR RESOLUTION, THAT THAT WOULD BE ACCEPTED. WELL, NO D DENIALS A DENIAL AT THAT POINT. BUT IF ONCE IT GETS DENIED, WELL YOU CAN, YOU CAN MAKE STATEMENTS IN A RESOLUTION IN OTHER RELATED RELATED. SO IT'S, IT'S NOT EXACTLY OUTLINED. SO ACCESSORY USES PERMITTED IN THE GMS ZONE ARE PRIVATE SWIMMING POOLS AND OTHER USUAL RECREATIONAL FACILITIES. CUSTOMARILY ASSOCIATED WITH RESIDENTIAL DEVELOPING UNITS, [03:40:01] STORAGE SHEDS, GAZEBOS, ET CETERA. OFF STREET PARKING, INCLUDING PRIVATE GARAGES, FENCES AND WALLS, HOME OCCUPATIONS AS CONDITIONAL USES, SIGNS, SATELLITE DISH ANTENNAS. UM, AND, AND SOMETHING WITH RESPECT TO SALES TRAILERS FOR MAJOR SUBDIVISION. THAT'S NOT APPLICABLE HERE. SO IT'S NOT REALLY EXPRESSLY A PERMITTED ACCESSORY USE. AND I DON'T KNOW IF IT WOULD BE CONSIDERED A TYPICAL ACCESSORY USE. IT'S IN THE FRONT YARD. MOST THINGS ARE REQUIRED TO BE IN THE REAR YARD LIKE SHEDS OR TENNIS COURTS AND THINGS LIKE THAT. POOLS, THEY'RE NOT ALLOWED TO BE IN THE FRONT YARD. SO A GOLF PROFESSIONAL THAT HAS A TWO HOLE GOLF COURSE AROUND HIS HOUSE WOULD HAVE TO REMOVE THAT IN THIS SCENARIO. IF IT WAS, WELL IT SAYS OTHER USUAL RECREATIONAL FACILITIES. BUT THE STANDARDS, IF YOU GO INTO THE STANDARDS, I DON'T HAVE THOSE. YEAH, AND THAT'S, AND IT'S HARD TO LOOK AT ON THE PHONE. IS IT A GRAY AREA? IS IT NOT SPECIFIC TO ALL OF THOSE THINGS OR ARE THEY ALL LISTED, GET THAT? WELL, SO IF I WERE THE ZONING OFFICER, I'M NOT THE ZONING OFFICER, BUT, SO I WOULD SAY IT WOULD BE A KIN, RIGHT? MM-HMM . LIKE, SO IF YOU LOOK AT A POOL OR A TENNIS COURT OR A BASKETBALL COURT OR A DERIVING RANGE MM-HMM . OR A BA A BASEBALL, A BA BASEBALL, PUTTING RANGE BASEBALL, YOU KNOW, BATTED CA OR WHATEVER, A MINI LACROSSE COURT. YOU COULD PUT ANY OF THAT IN YOUR YARD AS LONG AS YOU DON'T EXCEED THE COVERAGE REQUIREMENTS. BUT IT STILL HAS TO GO IN THE BACK. IT CAN'T BE IN THE FRONT. GOTCHA. ALL OF THOSE THINGS HAVE TO GO TO THE BACKYARD. AND YOU SHOWED, I MEAN, YOU WERE LOOKING AT THE YEAH, THERE'S AT LEAST FOUR HOLES IN THE FRONT YARD HERE FROM WHAT I CAN SEE. MM-HMM . FOUR, I DON'T EVEN WANNA CALL 'EM HOLES. WHATEVER. , SORRY. AND I DUNNO, THAT'S TYPICAL. I I GET THAT. SO, SO THE DENIAL TO THE USE VARIANCE WOULD MEAN REMOVAL WOULD BE NECESSARY. AT LEAST PARTIAL REMOVAL. PARTIAL REMOVAL. DOES ANYONE FROM THE BOARD HAVE ANY SORRY, YOU WERE GONNA SAY SOMETHING? NO, I WAS JUST GONNA SAY THAT WOULD ADDRESS THE ISSUES WITH PEOPLE ON HARTFORD ROAD AS WELL WITH THE PARTIAL REMOVAL THAT WOULD REMOVE IT TO THE BACK OF THE YARD. PART OF THE PROPERTY. SORRY, JUST THINKING COMMENT. YEAH, I DON'T KNOW. I JUST, I THINK, UM, IT, IT DOES SEEM TO HAVE BEEN DOWNPLAYED. UM, I THINK THIS IS LARGER THAN, YOU KNOW, THIS HAS BEEN GOING ON FOR A COUPLE YEARS. IT IS AS IF HE'S BUILT THIS, UH, COMMUNITY, UM, AND PUBLICLY ADVERTISING IT. AND, YOU KNOW, LIMITING SAYING THAT THERE'S ONLY GONNA BE 40 TO 40 CARS. I DON'T NECESSARILY KNOW IF THAT'S THE CASE. THIS JUST SEEMS TO BE, I THINK THE, UM, CREEP KIND OF EXPLANATION THAT OUR PLANNER GAVE. UM, MAKES A LOT OF SENSE. DID YOU WANNA PROVIDE ANY ADDITIONAL TESTIMONY? WELL, JUST NO ADDITIONAL TESTIMONY. JUST THE FINAL ARGUMENT. I'VE BEEN DOING THIS FOR 30 YEARS AS THE LAND USE ATTORNEY. THE MORE DETAILS YOU PUT INTO RESOLUTION, THEY ARE ENFORCEABLE. IF, IF, IF, IF THERE, THERE, IF WAR GOLFERS DISC GOLFERS ON A HOLE THAT'S VIOLATING THE, THE LAND USE APPROVAL THAT IS ENFORCEABLE. THE OPERATION IS ENFORCEABLE. HOW DO YOU REALLY THINK THAT WE CAN PUT IN A RESOLUTION THAT THERE CAN ONLY BE TWO PEOPLE AT EACH HOLE AND THAT OUR ZONING OFFICER IS GOING TO BE ABLE TO GO OUT THERE IN THE MIDDLE OF THE WOODS AND ENFORCE THAT. WE, WE WILL STIPULATE THAT WE'LL GIVE US, WE'LL GIVE A SIGN UP TO THIS TOURNAMENT TO, TO AN BELL'S OFFICE. WE, WE WILL PROVIDE THAT. BUT IT'S NOT EVEN JUST THE TOURNAMENT. I MEAN, THERE'S PEOPLE THAT COME OUT THERE ON WEEKDAYS OR WEEKENDS AND THERE'S MORE PEOPLE PLAYING AT TWO TO THREE PEOPLE PLAYING AT A HOLE. I MEAN, THERE'S STILL AN ENFORCEABILITY ISSUE. I UNDERSTAND THE ENFORCEABILITY ESG IS IS LARGER FOR IT'S NEVER GONNA TORMENTS GONNA BE 40 CARS ON THERE ON A NON TORMENT DAY. THAT'S, THAT, THAT'S APPLES AND ORANGES. THEY'RE REALLY NOT SAME. THEY'RE NOT SAME. I THINK YOU'VE HEARD PLENTY OF TESTIMONY THAT MAYBE YOU HAVE [03:45:01] NO MORE THAN 10, 15 PEOPLE ON THE WEEKEND. THAT'S, THAT'S IT. BUT THAT'S OVER AND THAT'S OVER THE SPAN OF AN ENTIRE DAY IN THE DAYLIGHT HOURS I PLAYED OVER THERE. IT'S, THERE'S SOMETIMES I'VE BEEN THERE. THERE'S NO ONE THERE. THERE REALLY IS. SO ANYWAY, THANK YOU. AS FAR AS THE LIKE WETLANDS INTRUSION AND THINGS LIKE THAT, IT'S NOT, IT WOULD COME UP WITH A SITE SITE PLAN. THAT'S A SITE PLAN ISSUE LAYOUT. RIGHT. OKAY. YOU MM-HMM . ARE BOARD MEMBERS. ONE THING YOU COULD DO IS YOU COULD GRANT THE USE BUT DENY THE RIGHT TO HAVE THE TOURNAMENTS AS A CONDITION OF APPROVAL. SURE. THAT WAY THAT IS, THAT IS AN ALTERNATIVE. SO THAT THEY COULD KEEP THE, THE COURSE AS IT EXISTS TODAY, IN MY OPINION, THAT DOESN'T VERY SMALL SCALE, IN MY OPINION, THAT DOESN'T RESOLVE THE HARTFORD ROAD ISSUES WITH THE FRONT YARD ACTIVITIES ON A RESIDENTIAL LINE. WELL, IF YOU GRANT THE USE VARIANCE, THEN IT'S, THEN IT'S APPROVED. THAT GOES AWAY. THAT'S HOW YOU GET AROUND WHAT GOES AWAY. I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT, I'M NOT SAYING YOU'RE TRYING, WE'RE TRYING TO GET AROUND, HEY, YOU'RE TRYING TO GET AROUND THE FACT THAT THERE, THEY HAVE ACTIVITIES IN THE FRONT YARD. WELL, THAT SHOULD BE APPROVED IN THE BACKYARD. ONLY IF YOU'RE INTO USE VARIANCE, YOU'RE ALLOWING A USE THAT'S OTHERWISE YEAH, SURE. YOU CAN DO THAT FOR ANYTHING IN A WHILE, BUT WHY WOULD I BE SO, RIGHT. WELL, I MEAN, I'M JUST SAYING BEAT PATH. I THINK THAT'S A, THAT'S A PRACTICAL WAY OF DEALING WITH THIS APPLICATION IF YOU HAVE RESERVATIONS. THAT'S ALL. THAT'S ALL. THANK YOU. WHAT'S THAT? B ROLLING ARMY BOARD. DOES ANYONE ELSE FROM THE BOARD HAVE ANY COMMENTS OR OPINIONS OR MOTIONS OR MOTIONS OR QUESTIONS? WELL, BASED ON THE INFORMATION THAT I HEARD, ONE IS THAT I, I UNDERSTAND THAT THERE CAN BE ANY ACTIVITY IN THE FRONT YARD THAT'S, THAT'S WAS CORRECT. SO IF IT WERE A TYPICAL RESIDENTIAL ACCESSORY RECREATIONAL USE, IT WOULD BE IN THE REAR YARD. IN THE REAR YARD. STOCK POOLS, TENNIS COURTS, THINGS LIKE THAT. EXACTLY. SO WE'RE SAYING, WE'RE SAYING IT IS A RECREATIONAL FACILITY AT A, AT A RESIDENTIAL. IT IS NOT AN ACCESSORY USE IN THIS CASE. IT IS NOT. IT IS A PRINCIPAL USE. THERE ARE TWO PRINCIPAL USES NOW PROPOSED. ONE IS THE RESIDENCE. MM-HMM . AND THE SECOND IS THE DISC GOLF COURSE. MM-HMM . SO IT IS A USE VARIANCE THAT DON'T, DON'T MUDDY THE WATERS HERE ABOUT ACCESSORY VERSUS PRINCIPLE. MM-HMM . THERE ARE TWO PRINCIPAL USES PROPOSED ON THIS SITE. ONE IS A RESIDENCE, THE OTHER IS A DISC GOLF COURSE THAT IS OPEN TO THE PUBLIC IN SOME FASHION AND ON A DAILY BASIS AND OPEN FOR EVENTS FOUR TIMES PER YEAR. THAT'S WHAT THE TESTIMONY WAS. AND THAT'S WHAT THE APPLICATION WAS. IT SEEMS THAT THERE MAY BE OTHER THINGS THAT GO ON IN THE LOCATION BEYOND THAT. AND ALSO IN CONSIDERATION OF THE NEIGHBORS WHO ARE CONCERNED ABOUT THE ACTIVITIES INTERFERING WITH THEIR LIFE. YES. QUIET EMPLOYMENT. YES. IT'S, IT'S SOMETHING TO BE CONSIDERED. THAT'S CORRECT. SO BASED UPON THAT, I THINK WE'RE READY FOR A MOTION. I THINK THAT, UM, THAT, THAT WAS A GREAT COMMENT. IT GOES TOWARDS, UM, EVALUATING WHETHER THE PROPOSED USE WILL CAUSE A SUBSTANTIAL DETRIMENT TO THE PUBLIC. GOOD. WE HEARD FROM PLENTY OF RESIDENTS, [03:50:01] UM, WHO HAVE SPOKEN ABOUT THE, THE DETRIMENT THAT THEY BELIEVE WILL OCCUR, UM, IF THE USE CONTINUES. AND, UM, I I DON'T SEE A WAY TO MITIGATE, MITIGATE GUIDELINES, THOSE, THOSE DETRIMENTS. UM, AND I HAVEN'T HEARD OF ANY REASONABLE CONDITIONS. UM, AND I DON'T REALLY THINK THAT WE'VE HEARD OF ANY AND THAT IT'S POSSIBLE FROM A ENFORCEMENT PERSPECTIVE. UM, SO I AGREE WITH YOUR COMMENTS. SO I MAKE A MOTION, IF CORRECT, IF THIS MOTION IS CORRECTED, THAT'D BE DENIED. YOU HAVE A MOTION ON THE TABLE TO DENY THE APPLICATION. MR. HACKETT? I'LL SECOND THAT. AND IF YOU VOTE YES IN FAVOR OF THE MOTION, YOU'RE VOTING TO DENY THE APPLICATION ROLL CALL MR. MARSON. AYE. MR. GENTILLY? AYE. MR. Z AYE. MR. HACKETT AYE. VICE AYE. AND MADAM CHAIR ON BOTH AYE. APPLICATIONS? AYE. THANK YOU. I THINK IT WAS. I THINK WE'RE GONNA, UM, SKIP THE ZONING REPORT. MS. TAYLOR. MS. TAYLOR, ARE YOU OKAY WITH US SKIPPING THE ZONING REPORT? OKAY, SO LET'S, WE WILL, WE'RE GONNA MOVE THE ZONING REPORT AND PUT IT ON NEXT MONTH'S AGENDA FORWARD TO IT THAT WE NEED. RIGHT. UM, AND WE DON'T, THERE'S NO NEED FOR EXECUTIVE MOTION FOR, THERE'S NO NEED FOR EXECUTIVE. OKAY. MOTION TO ADJOURN PLEASE. MOTION FOR ADJOURNS. SECOND. ALL IN FAVOR? AYE. AYE. * This transcript was created by voice-to-text technology. The transcript has not been edited for errors or omissions, it is for reference only and is not the official minutes of the meeting.